Miguel Avalos

Head of Ads Marketing, Commerce & Vertical Growth Programs EMEA

Creating a culture of diversity to ignite growth

Speaker 1:

Hi, and welcome to the Insiders by durhamlane, where we get perspectives from industry thought leaders about strategies that are unifying marketing and sales cycles to help accelerate growth inside your world.

Richard Lane:

Simon and I were joined by Miguel Avalos from Google for this episode of The Insiders. We covered many topics that I’m sure will resonate with you, from key growth challenges to digital first leadership. From the impact and benefits of building diverse and cross-functional teams, to how sales and marketing are two sides of the same coin. Listen on to hear Miguel’s thoughts on all of this and more. And of course, his contribution to the insider’s Spotify playlist. As always, hope you enjoy the discussion.

Simon Hazeldine:

Hello and welcome to the Insiders by durhamlane, an industry podcast giving you the inside track on all things B2B sales and marketing. I’m your host, Simon Hazeldine. I’m an author, sales expert and keynote speaker on all things sales and negotiation. I’m joined by my co-host, the CCO and co-founder of durhamlane, Richard Lane. Richard, it’s great to be back with you for another insider’s episode. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about durhamlane before you introduce our guest?

Richard Lane:

Hi, Simon. Thrilled to be back in the Insider’s Studio. Just quickly, durhamlane, we’re an integrated sales and marketing agency. What do we do? Well, we help our customers create always on channels of meaningful, well qualified sales opportunities that business development teams love to close. Really trying to bridge that gap between marketing and sales demand and lead generation.

Today, we’re thrilled to be joined by Miguel Avalos, Google’s head of B2B ads, verticals, marketing. Really excited about today’s podcast. I know our listener’s going to love it. Miguel, welcome. I’m going to hand back to Simon to get us started.

Simon Hazeldine:

Wonderful. Thanks, Richard. Miguel, what we always ask our guests to do is just provide a little bit of background on yourself and how you came to be in the role you’re in currently so that our listeners can get to know you a little bit.

Miguel Avalos:

Thank you, Simon, and thank you, Richard, for the welcome. Very excited to be here today. And thanks for the audience to paying attention in their busy times. To answer your question, Simon, I’ve been at Google for seven years now. It was a couple of weeks ago I turned seven. And I’m originally from Mexico, born and raised.

I started my career in Procter & Gamble Latin America. Then moved to the US where I was doing an MBA and I did some consulting projects, worked in New York as well. Then, after finishing my MBA, went to work in South Korea for Samsung Electronics. Very interesting, working on a strategy marketing for the consumer side of business. Mostly mobile as you may know, which is Samsung’s core business.

But after almost couple of years I moved to Europe. And in Europe, Poland particularly is when I joined Google. Back then, Google was the smallest company I ever worked for in the context of these other companies I worked before in terms of revenue and in terms of number of people. But seven years after, I can say that now is the largest company by a lot.

That allowed me to see the transformation of the company, tremendous growth. And obviously, how do you work in market in B2B and how do you need to pivot so many times? Because the business strategy change, obviously depending on how your business is evolving. The team changes as well. You start with a couple of people and then all of a sudden, it becomes a sizeable organization. Being through that evolution has given me a lot of insight that I hope can be useful for today’s listeners.

And to answer your more specifically, how did I get into the role? The process at Google is very rigorous in terms of recruiting because it’s quite competitive. But what I could say is that once I was able to get in, I had the opportunity to shape my role. Obviously, I started with a job description, some key challenges. But over time, I learn how to tap into other growth opportunities, how to grow a team, and basically looking into ways how I can expand my footprint and the impact within Google.

And obviously externally, because we also need to have in mind that a lot of the things that we do as a company and personally is because we want to help our customers. It may sound a little bit of a cliché, but I think that generally I do believe that with the power of internet, we have a lot of responsibility. And have seen a lot of cases where we’re helping customers to become bigger companies, to become better at digital transformation.

And as a result, being more successful in the environment, that can be challenging as we are at the moment facing. Yeah, that’s a bit of a long answer for, but it was an important question to start with.

Simon Hazeldine:

Firstly, it’s a very impressive world to talk, Miguel. I have to say. That’s a trip across so many different countries as part of your career. And I am ever so fascinated at Google ever being described as a smaller organization, which it clearly isn’t now.

And that’s been an impressive growth. And in our pre-interview we were discussing business growth. And you mentioned to us that you think there are two key challenges that businesses face with this. I’d be fascinated if you could explain what you see those two challenges as.

Miguel Avalos:

Yeah. And yeah, I mentioned that is basically go-to-market and talent. And I think that the context of this it’s a couple of things. One is I get involved with a lot of companies across the different countries that we operate, in India and in the rest of other regions as well. I get that perspective of what are the companies struggling, small, medium. Less large, because usually large companies are already present in multiple countries. That is number one.

Number two is that even when you look at some research of what startups or scale up organizations are facing as many challenges to expand is this too. I saw Insight’s partners, actually they released a very interesting research, where they had, I think that close to 50%, it was 48 if I remember the number correctly. 48% of people who were surveyed, the go-to-market, the most important challenge to expand.

And when you think about talent, it’s the same. Because you cannot scale if you don’t have the right capabilities, if you don’t have the right people in place. And then within talent, you have another dimension, which is the culture. How do you ensure that you can grow an organization, but you can still maintain that culture that you define whatever you think that works for the company? But it’s important that you keep that cohesive as part of the growth for your operations or any expansion of markets.

Simon Hazeldine:

Miguel, could you just elaborate a little further on what you personally have seen in terms of what’s most important where these two areas are concerned?

Miguel Avalos:

Yeah, this is a very good followup, Simon. I think that a lot of companies, and especially new ones or founders, you may have an amazing product. And you are in love with that product, but you don’t necessarily have what it takes to go into a new market.

And sometimes it can be just product fit because whatever works in the UK is not going to work in Germany or in the US or in China if you are going there. But the other one are distribution channels. Because there are countries in which it is more digital, it is more self-service, or it can be more wholesale. Those change constantly, depending on the region where you are. And obviously, promotion as well. The way you are going to promote or talk about your product, the channels that you use.

Payments is another one that we have seen. You have different payment platforms. For instance, in China you use WeChat for everything basically. But if you are in the UK, you have a higher penetration of credit cards. If you go to Latin America, that may not be the case. You may need to use PayPal or an equivalent of the local market on that.

The legal framework as well is another important one because the rules of what you sell, depending on the product, import, export may change dramatically depending on the country. Logistics as well, obviously. And the last one is on HR. And this is connected to the talent piece. Because HR or the way you recruit is going to change substantially. Sometimes you focus more on specific schools or sometimes you need to focus on third party organizations to attract the talent that you need.

And things to consider is the role related knowledge of what you want the person to do with equally leadership and culture. How does that person is going to fit into the broader culture of your organization? Let’s say that you are expanding your capabilities to China for the first time. You need to be very conscious of having one person from China who grew up there is going to have a completely different culture and way of operating versus what you have in the UK. That’s a simple example, but sometimes it can be even evident within Europe. Europe is also a very diverse set of countries.

But last but not least, you also need to think about smaller things like generational differences. I mentioned that I’m part of the generation where I was first analog and then I worked digital. You have digital first, or you may have people who are still in the workforce and they grew up with analog ways of communication.

You also need to consider that. And flexibility as well as location where people will be operating. This is just a bit of a list, but this is what I have seen with our customers and with our own experience. Some of the things that you really need to consider and go into on how to expand with the right talent and with the right go-to-market.

Simon Hazeldine:

I think in terms of bringing in talent into the organization, often organizations are going to be managing people now in different ways than they were previously, years ago. Be interested in your perspective, managing a team. What are your thoughts on what’s sometimes referred to as digital first leadership?

Miguel Avalos:

Yeah. And I think that the way I think about digital first is because, especially new generations, they grew up with the internet. I’m still part of that generation where I grew up with an analog communication channels and then digital came. Like a lot of the audience, I assume that we’re in between. But newer generations, they started with digital. All their interactions have been digital.

You need to cater to this digital first employees or talent. And there are multiple ways that you need to consider. One is that obviously you need to have much more flexibility, work in remote environments. You have a lot of companies that are remote first or remote only. You also have hybrid. In the case of Google, we are actually take two, three days in the office, two days virtually. How we have evolved, especially post-COVID because when you are in the office it becomes more social. And we know that.

And you need to factor that in a little bit because if you want to do deep thinking work, potentially that can be challenging, given that you’re going to be in an environment that you don’t get everyday to enjoy. You need to make sure that you build those connections, you inspire people, that you build trust as well within your team and obviously your stakeholders.

And then when you are working virtually, you have more of an opportunity to design your day depending on what you need to tackle. Personally, I’m very outcome oriented. Depending on what I want to achieve within that week, that’s how I plan my calendar. And there are things in which I just ruthlessly prioritize because it’s not along the things that I want to achieve within that week.

That said, these are only examples of how flexible you have to be. I think that you need to be much more flexible with your workforce. You need to be much more flexible with your time, even with your location. Because even when I go to the office three days, the days in which I don’t go to the office, I can be working from home or I can be working as well from a coffee shop, from my library, while I’m traveling if I’m going to do some weekend trips.

And that obviously requires to adjust into so many different things. And that you have a good connection, you have as well some limitations. But I think that flexibility is one of them is probably one of the top things when you consider the digital first environment.

There are other things that you also need to consider, which are some of the nuances of working remotely because you obviously don’t get the body language as you do when you’re face-to-face. You want to ensure that you probably rephrase things so your listener knows that you’re on the same page or you want to reiterate something to ensure that the communication is coming across. You have to be much more intentional about it. And even sometimes if you know are someone who doesn’t necessarily smile much, probably you may need to smile more if you want to come across positively with your team.

The other one is feedback in general. I think that in more built on environments it’s more difficult sometimes even to get people to discuss things after the meeting or when you run into the whole while you’re going into the office. You need to find opportunities where you can be more direct with feedback.

I love radical candor for example, because it’s a way to be direct but supportive at the same time. I think that this is going to be a trend as well that is going to evolve and that you’re going to see more in successful digital companies and successful digital teams. This flexibility, this radical candor and being conscious of all the nuances that this fluid environment can create.

Simon Hazeldine:

Richard, from your perspective with durhamlane and in terms of digital first leadership, from your perspective, what’s your take on this?

Richard Lane:

Yeah, I mean I’m making notes as Miguel has been talking there. I think there’s some great points coming through. We are running a hybrid organization. We have some people that they are fully digital, being not near our office and some that do a hybrid approach. It is the way that we now work. We all have to embrace it.

I think the word digital will probably get lost because actually it’s just what we do. We talk about it as being digital. Well, it’s just life. And people I think now coming into the workforce, as Miguel says, are they’re used to being constantly connected. We have to lean into that and see how we can work it.

We’ve looked at continually looking at data points around the performance of our people depending on where they’re based because that informs so many business decisions for us in terms of how many offices might we need, might we not need more offices? And we’ve noticed very little difference between 100% remote and people that are working hybrid, which is I think quite interesting.

Simon Hazeldine:

Yeah, I think for a generation that were brought up being permanently connected, I was explaining to my son that in my first field sales role, I used to have to stop at a phone box and phone the office to get my messages. And I think he thought I was lying to him. He didn’t understand stopping to phone and get your messages as a concept.

Richard Lane:

At the risk of losing our audience, Simon, I used to come home from visiting one of our other offices years ago. And I would unplug the telephone, plug my laptop into the telephone to download all my emails. It’s like, yeah, crazy days.

Simon Hazeldine:

We won’t spend too much time in Simon and Richard’s memory lane, Miguel. I’m going to come back to you because I just want to connect a few things. You mentioned the importance of talent, you mentioned culture. And also, this digital first leadership. With those kind of themes in mind, what are your thoughts on the importance of building a diverse and effective team and how that impacts culture?

Miguel Avalos:

I mean, I think the diversity today is a no-brainer, especially I grew up in a developing environment, in a developing country where not necessarily all the women have opportunities to work. Then you realize that just by practical terms, 50% of the population is female. If you don’t develop that 50% of the population, then you just get behind. And it’s going to be more difficult for individuals and societies to develop as a whole.

I think that definitely we need to aim to have that 50/50 and especially the leadership roles. I think that generally speaking, in different companies and different functions, you can address the challenges at the bottom of the career or at the starting of their career. But particularly for leadership roles, there is much more work to do. I think that definitely is super important to enable that growth for female colleagues.

But equally, I think that diversity is not only about gender, because as a male, I have 50% of my team who are female. And I think that there is a big responsibility for us to empower women who are in leadership positions. I think that in general, when you look at diversity and for any listener, I encourage that people look at how do you contribute to the diversity of your team? Obviously gender, but also non-gender.

How do you empower female? But how do you empower people who are coming from perhaps different backgrounds, from socioeconomical backgrounds, religious? And you need to think about equity and inclusion because you want to tap into that talent. You need to ensure that people feel safe in that environment. That they feel that who they are is okay, they don’t have any biases. And therefore, you will be able to unleash that talent in a better way.

And all in all, when you think about the user perspective or the customer, it’s quite diverse. I don’t see a world where, for instance, at Google we don’t have diversity internally because just our customers are coming from so many different backgrounds. That’s one of the first elements where you need to have a diversity in the team because they’re going to represent us well, your customer.

But all in all, I think that I have seen through my career and working in different companies how having diversity within the talent is going to enable you to have a more holistic thinking. You are going to be pushed to think out of the box. You are going to understand things that probably you didn’t understand before, how things are done in Germany versus the UK or in France. And that’s going to just as a whole enable your team and your organization to be much more impactful.

Simon Hazeldine:

I think it’s a key area of focus and consideration, I think for all leaders and all organizations. I guess following on from that to a certain degree, obviously you’ve had quite vast international experience. But as well as the cross-cultural part, you’ve got a great experience working and cross-culturally with those sort of teams. When you are working with a team like that or building a team like that, what are the key aspects you think that our listeners should be considering?

Miguel Avalos:

I think that you need to be very aware that it’s not necessarily going to be easy in the beginning. I think that especially early in our careers, we tend to hire people who look like us, who speak like us, who went to the same university as us. But that’s not diversity and that is already a bias.

What you want to do is to bring people who actually make you feel the difference and they are bringing that value. Because you want to build a culture within the team that is adding on constantly. You bring people and that is part of a bigger puzzle. You bring another individual and that’s going to bring additional skills and additional perspective. I think that number one, you have to be very conscious and intentional about building a diverse team. Once you do that, you need to start getting into understanding more what are the differences?

The differences, but to find the common ground, not necessarily to exclude things. But you need to understand what is the common ground. And there are things related to communication, for instance, where some countries are more direct than others, some countries are more indirect. Extrovert versus introvert. I think that for instance, in Asia you have people who are, it’s not necessarily normal that people speak up. While if you work in the US, people actually speak up rather than being asked to speak up. You need to enable that communication as well when you are working with multiple countries.

Other things as well, like a communication cadence. How do people prefer to communicate? What is the timeframe? Is there any specific channel where people communicate? There are cultures in which email is more important or Slack or ping. It depends, obviously it’s also there is a blanket with a company’s organization, but all in all you need to understand what are those differences so you can find the common ground.

And in terms of cross-functional, I think that, which was the second part of your question, working with cross-functional teams, I think that has to do as well. How do you find that common objective? And that can come in forms of what you want to solve for the business as a challenge with a customer. Or how can you share KPIs?

I think that this is the ultimate goal actually. If you can share KPIs with your cross-functional partners, that’s going to always enable better collaboration. And it’s going to make the decisions less of a contradiction because you are going to solve for the common KPIs.

It’s not an easy. It’s easier to say than done. I recognize that, but I think that that’s the ultimate goal. When you have a good relationship. And when you know or you have clarity of whether the business objectives, you need to put those things on paper and measure how are you working together towards that.

Simon Hazeldine:

Yeah, which is the importance of the common focus, I think, which we’ve had other guests refer to. Yeah. Richard, you wanted to just comment.

Richard Lane:

Miguel, I was just going to ask. Clearly you are working for a forward-thinking global organization in Google. How does Google communicate internally? If you have a very top level announcement, how does that come through?

Miguel Avalos:

Usually it’s emails. I mean, we started Gmail. It’s not a surprise that we use email a lot and precisely Gmail. I think that is the main communication channel, but you usually have followups, especially for important announcements via video conference. I think that video conference just became something that is quite prominent in any tech company. I would say those two.

Richard Lane:


Simon Hazeldine:

Wonderful. When you were talking about the more indirect and direct cultures, Miguel, it made me remember my three years working for a very, very direct Dutch vice president. And as a more indirect and Brit, I went on a bit of a learning curve about cultural differences where communication was concerned.

And in terms of cross-functional, obviously the podcast is a sales and marketing focused podcast. In terms of cross-functional working, I definitely got to ask you, what do you think needs to be in place for successful integration and alignment of sales, and the sales and marketing functions?

Miguel Avalos:

Yeah, that’s a good one, Simon. And I think that I see sales and marketing as two sides of the same coin. I’ve been doing B2B marketing for the last seven years. But I did sales in the start of my career, so I can talk about the two of them. And I see that there are more things in common than not.

Obviously, you have different objectives, marketing tends to be a little bit more midterm to long term. And not by intention, but just by the many times the things that you do, it takes time to execute and it takes time to measure till you finally see the result.

While when you’re working in sales, is just very easy or relatively easier on that measurement because you one, you meet with a customer, you sign off the quota. You see the revenue reflected. That is the starting of how you can see things completely different. However, I think that they are very complimentary. The way I see marketing and especially in the B2B side, it’s a way to scale your sales team.

There are limitations with sales teams. If you want to reach to more customers, you need to tap into the marketing capabilities of your company so you can reach out to more customers, hundreds or thousands. Because with salespeople, it’s tens or hundreds. You can scale massively with marketing.

To be successful goes back to what I mentioned earlier. You need to share KPIs. You need to have similar goals. And if for sales is having a quarter of the year of X amount of millions or thousands of dollars or whatever. Marketing has to have a very clear role definition within what is going to be achievable for that timeframe. But if you’re talking about perception with customers, how perception is going to affect from the marketing side versus what sales is going to do. Again, you need to have those higher level go-to-market KPIs and bring them down by marketing and sales.

And last but not least, what I invite our listeners is regardless of you are part of a sales or a marketing organization, just think through the eyes of the other person and you will understand way more. Obviously, there are always constraints in the work environment, but if you think beyond the constraints and you think of what you want to achieve and how do you want to collaborate, that’s the best partnership that you can unleash.

Simon Hazeldine:

That’s wonderful. Thank you for that. And Richard, from a durhamlane point of view, what’s your take on Miguel’s thinking about the timeline differences between sales and marketing? I mean that’s really interesting comment about and how they may relate to KPI’s, I guess.

Richard Lane:

Yeah, we talk about this a lot. Don’t we, Simon? And I’ve not heard anyone say it in quite that way before, but it’s always maybe where the diversion starts is that people are thinking on different time scales. And therefore, have different activities, different drivers, different goals. And perhaps what starts as a very thin difference becomes greater as you go through.

Yeah, I like that. That’s a good way of thinking about it. But I’m always saying to people, “Put your feet in the shoes of the other person.” Whether you are trying to help them to buy from you, or whether they’re in a different role. You’re trying to understand them, build rapport with them, then it’s a key way of understanding it. Think through the eyes of the other person I think is what Miguel said.

Simon Hazeldine:

As Richard said, I think that’s the first time we’ve heard it articulated in that manner. I think there’s some very, very interesting food for thought there with that one. In our pre-interview you mentioned your passion for e-commerce. And e-commerce is now part of everybody’s lives in such a significant and major way. How do you see it evolving and unfolding in the future?

Miguel Avalos:

Yeah, thank you, Simon. That’s also a great question. And unfortunately, even when I work at Google, I don’t have a crystal ball. Although I wish, but no one has a crystal ball of things are going to unfold. As you know retail has been a very challenged industry since the start of COVID and obviously, during and now after because it’s the pulse of the economy in a way. But also, you are subject to so many things that are happen externally.

I see a lot of unpredictability because now you have inflation. And inflation is across Europe, across the world. Supply chain issues as well that you may see more pronounced in some parts of the world, but still is something that is affecting everyone. You see, for instance, the chips. You cannot get to build phones or build cars. But as a result. All the things in the supply chain get delayed.

Then you also need to set up your team for being agile because basically, you need to preempt the way in which these forces are going to be pushing the economy or your business to be able to pivot to new opportunities or to find those opportunities. If you are not able to react quickly, then you may lose it.

And for us who are basically in the UK, I think that we constantly hear about the biggest squeeze of all, these macro factors coming together for winter. And especially with the high energy cost, obviously disposable income is going to be a bit more challenging for some people. It’s important that, as retailers, we find ways to sort this out. And there are ways. I think that like in everything, we have seen companies who are well prepared, who are digital ready, who are agile. And those are the ones who can be successful.

Data is going to be paramount in this environment because demand is constantly shifting, so its supply. But the more data and digital tools like automation are going to help e-commerce companies to understand better trends and try to anticipate to the future. Obviously, at Google we provide a lot of that, especially on the automation. But even with other companies, I think that is important that retailers and e-commerce companies really step up on the digital capabilities so they can sort out all these changes that are going to be quite quick and quite dynamic.

And that is going to help where to understand where the demand is and obviously, be a successful business in what is coming very soon, the peak season. And we see as well, what I have seen that a lot of customers are already shopping for Christmas. It seems that given all the supply chain issues, a lot of customers are already making their list for Santa and make sure that they get all their goods delivered on time. Yeah, it’s not a crystal ball, it’s quite complex, but I think that there are opportunities in there.

Simon Hazeldine:

And as soon as Google develops the crystal ball, sign me up, I’ll be the first customer for that one. That would be a wonderful thing to have. Richard, in terms of recap for you, main points? I know you’ve been, as usual, you’re sitting there making notes as we go along. What were the key things for you?

Richard Lane:

Yeah, well I think firstly, Miguel, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experience and knowledge with us and our listeners today. It’s been great to hear you. I feel like we’ve gone on quite a journey in a relatively short period of time, which I think is kudos to you.

But we started talking about key growth challenges and we looked at that go-to-market piece. We talked about talent and then also culture as being part of that talent. I think that led us really nicely on to digital first leadership and how the world has changed and will continue to change. But one phrase that I loved was, well, we’ve got to be more flexible. But then we said we need to be more intentional. And I think being more intentional and having radical candor means that we’re going to cut through and use our time as wisely as we can. I thought lots of interesting pieces in there.

Moved us into diversity and cross-functional teams. And if you are not embracing diversity, then you’ve missed 50% of your market. If you haven’t, then there’s a big challenge for everyone, particularly in these times where finding great people is challenging.

We need to feel safe to unleash talent, was a note that I made. I love that as a concept. And then we talked about sales and marketing, familiar territory, Simon, for us in the Insiders. But I like that idea of being two sides of the same coin. But also starting to think about perhaps that timing piece is what maybe leads to the divergence further down the line. We and our listeners can think about that some more. But if you have common goals and you share KPIs, then you should be able to bring those two strands back together successfully.

And then last point, technology a help understand predictability. I always, and I’ve probably said on the podcast before, that there is so much technology out there, sometimes I think it doesn’t help. But if you know what you’re looking for and if you’ve planned and understood, then technology’s there to help us make informed decisions. That is my summary.

Simon Hazeldine:

Wonderful, thank you. And Miguel, one last question, which often is the most difficult one we found for our guests. We’re building the insider’s Spotify playlist. And we ask every guest to add a song.

Richard Lane:

A diverse collection of music.

Simon Hazeldine:

Yes. Yeah, it is. On the subject of diversity, it is very diverse, Miguel. There’s all sorts of genres. What would be your contribution to the playlist, please?

Miguel Avalos:

Oh my goodness. That’s a good question. I mean, because I actually like a lot of English music bands, a big fan of Coldplay. I was going to say something from Mexico, but actually I don’t listen to Mexican music that much.

For me top is, I saw them recently by the way, not English, but American band, Guns N’ Roses. And I love Sweet Child O’ Mine. But if you want to add diversity to the podcast, just for the sake of diversity, I will say any song from, well, Mexican Louis Miguel singer, Cielito Lindo. That’s for the sake of diversity. But my favorite is Sweet Child O’ Mine by Guns N’ Roses.

Simon Hazeldine:

Well, Richard couldn’t decide, Miguel. Richard I think’s got four songs. I think we can definitely let you have your diversity as well as Guns N’ Roses on the Insiders.

Richard Lane:

Great choices, great choices.

Miguel Avalos:

Thank you.

Simon Hazeldine:

Thank you very much to Miguel for joining us on this episode of The Insiders by durhamlane. Thank you to my cohost, Richard. And thank you for listening in, folks. Please subscribe to the Insiders podcast on your preferred podcasting site to be notified of new episodes. And visit durhamlane.com to learn more about selling at a higher level. Thanks for listening in, folks. Good luck with all of your sales and marketing activities.

Speaker 1:

The Insiders, by durhamlane. Subscribe today to never miss an episode.