Dave Mackay

Sales Director, sa.global

From Lone Wolf to Team Player

VO: Hi, and welcome to The Insiders by durhamlane, where we get perspectives from industry thought leaders about strategies that are unifying marketing and sales cycles to help accelerate growth inside your world.

Richard: Welcome to The Insiders by durhamlane, an industry podcast that connects the worlds of marketing and sales, one guest at a time. I’m your host, Richard Lane.

I’m co-founder and chief commercial officer at durhamlane.Today, I’m thrilled to be joined in The Insiders podcast studio by Dave McKay.

Dave is the sales director of SA Global, an organization that empowers businesses to achieve more, achieve more faster, through their Microsoft-based services that address industry challenges through vertical-focused solutions. I know Dave from a previous life as well, so I’m convinced we’re going to have a great conversation today. Dave, welcome to the podcast, and thanks so much for being with us.

Dave: Hi, good morning. Thank you very much for inviting me to do this. I’m really looking forward to it, and went through some of the podcasts you’ve done before, so there’s been some great, brilliant people in here, so I don’t know why you’ve got me, but I’m looking forward to it.


Excellent. Well, really, as I say, great to have you with us, and thank you for joining me in the studio. So just to get us started and to help our listeners get a sense for you, Dave, could you just maybe provide a quick intro and let people know who you are and what you’re about? Yeah, I mean, the older I get, this intro becomes a wee bit longer when I start talking about my CV, so I’ll try and keep it as late as possible, but I wasn’t always on the dark side of sales.

I started my world as an engineer back in the day, telecoms engineer, and did that for a long period of time, and probably one of the roles I hark back to, because I enjoyed it so much, you know, is getting back on the tools kind of thing. But my world now, I moved into sales probably, I was about 29, 30-year-old, moved into sales, and that was pretty much in an IT space, putting EPOS warehouse management systems into large organisations and petrol pump controllers, so I still had that engineering background, but then went into a kind of selling of that, which was a really soft landing, I might say, because, you know, I was servicing customers that I already knew, I had a reputation that I could build on as a sales individual, so it became a fairly soft landing, and I look back at it now, as opposed to people coming straight into it. So I did that for a number of years, and then really felt that, OK, let’s challenge yourself, let’s see if you can actually do this sales thing, because if I’m honest, when I was an engineer, I didn’t have a high regard for salespeople, that was the reality.

My view is they sold me into businesses, and it caused me nothing but pain as a person that had to deliver it. So my reputation of my view of salespeople wasn’t of the highest standard. So even when I first moved into sales, I was very much of the opinion that I’ll still be a sales engineer, not a salesperson, because it made me feel as if I could cross over both areas, and also have a bit of self-respect, because I didn’t respect the role enough in terms of a salesperson.

But when I decided to embrace it, to say, OK, this is going to be my career now, because financially it was absolutely providing me a lifestyle that I was looking to get for me and my wife, and we just had a kid as well, so I was looking to do that. So I very much then embraced it and decided to challenge myself to move from a background that I’d been in for a long period of time into the ERP, CRM, Microsoft world, where I would really have to go on and understand business process and really in there and talk to clients and really unpick the business need. So a very, very, very steep learning curve.

And I did that, as I say, probably around 33, 34-year-old, and it was the biggest learning curve of my career to date in terms of the change in sales acumen or sales ability. And the learning curve I had to take myself on thereon in.


I mean, there’s so much already to talk about, particularly when I think of the Insiders podcast, and our listeners and the topics we cover, sales marketing alignment, the profession of sales, profession to be proud of, some of the challenges that come with the perception of sales.

So we’ll dig into some of that as we go, Dave. I think what I love though so far about the outline of the journey is that you were the guy that was there to implement what had been sold and then you became the guy that did the selling. So hopefully there’s going to be the talk of the professionalism of the world of selling as we go through today.

So let’s get started, if we can, around marketing and sales alignment. It’s a big topic. We cover it a lot on the podcast.

But I think you’ve got some particular examples, I think, where sometimes we learn from things when they don’t go particularly well. So perhaps we can dig into some of the challenge with the connection between those two worlds. Can we start there? Yeah, absolutely.


Yeah, as you see, I’ve had a mixed period with working with marketing teams from being a BDM right through to the role I do just now. And it’s always been interesting, more so when I moved into sales director role, that often I would be asked to pick up the marketing function as part of my role. And I’m not a marketeer, I’ve never been a marketeer.

So it’s one of the things, salt and pepper sounds fantastically well together, so does sales and marketing. But they do two very different things and have very different needs and bring something different to the table. So it’s important that you understand that.

And I, from a BDM point of view, I very much found the challenge not being clear on what the expectation was from the marketing team, from me as a sales individual. And that continued through being into sales director role. And where I find where I have had challenges is that, if I’m honest, there’s insecurities on both sides.

And I truly believe, and I treat this like any, I suppose, partnership that I have with any outside company who’s coming in to do a service for us, or we want to partner somebody else. We have a responsibility to be clear and concise with communication with each other, to be truly understanding each of our expectations and wants from each other, to ensure that we can then deliver on that. And I find where it hasn’t worked well for me in the past is where, I go into a lot of organisations where we’re trying to rebuild a sales team, a sales function up.

So you find there’s distrust can be there from the minute you walk through the door. That can actually, it’s not just marketing from that point, if you actually filter through it into the delivery teams and operationals as well, we have a culture change that we need to do when we go in. But from a marketing standpoint, it’s very much about how do we, how do I get a hold of that and break down that barrier? Because straight away it’s like, I’ve got to build trust and that’s fundamentally needs to be there.

And removing the insecurities that I’m here to service marketing and they’re here to service me and be clear with each other of what our expectation on that. And unfortunately, with the world I go into in general, trying to get businesses back up and running, I have to spend a lot of time getting to that point. And I have great examples where it’s worked well.

The examples of it not working well, I’ve got marketing functions building a lot of energy and time into great campaigns to go out there, but haven’t engaged sales to help enable that to happen. So it goes out and we’re just as surprised as the customer. There’s a new marketing campaign happening and there’s no ask of sales to be involved.

And that’s what I try to break down to make sure that we, marketing can get it to a certain point, but we have a responsibility as a sales function to take it to the next level and pushing the message out there to ensure that we not only get the benefit from a sales point of view, where we get our SQLs off the back of it and leads, but marketing have their goals to hit as well. And for them to get true ROI on a campaign, sales need to take it all the way to the nth degree to ensure we can see that true end goal, customer signs in the dotted line. That breadcrumb trail all the way through has to be there.

And where I experienced where it hasn’t happened in the past is marketing teams very much stop at the point that they push the message out and don’t engage in sales because they’ve had a bad experience with previous management team or function that was in the organisation.


Yeah, I was in a meeting yesterday and we were talking about, should we even have sales and marketing or should we just have revenue? And that’s a huge change and not sure it’s one I’ll see in my career span. But actually that’s the reality is that we should all be achieving the same goal.

And you sort of mentioned the fiefdoms there, you mentioned the need to build trust. So really just like you need to win the trust of a new prospect, you need to win trust of your internal colleagues and service providers and service purchasers as well, don’t you? So when we spoke pre-recording, you talked about some examples where you were totally in sync with your CMO colleague. Could you just maybe share the difference that that makes compared to having the distrust, or the lack of trust? Talk us through the impact of there being trust and that sync being connected.


Probably the best example I had of it is a gentleman called Nick Eades, who was my CMO at a previous organisation. And he understood sales and he understood his role and understood what I did. And it helped me and I’ll put more of the onus on his ability to understand what that meant from a sales point of view enabled me to be transparent and open with him what my expectation was.

He almost could finish my sentences at times in terms of what I was wanting to get out of him. And equally then he was very clear in what he was going to give me and what he expected from me. And from the very first couple of weeks of working together, the synergy was there.

You know, we worked very, very closely. We got on well. We challenged each other.

We knew what was expected of each other. The trust was there from the minute go. The insecurities, as I put it down to other businesses I go into, the feel there’s a risk that I’m challenging them because I’ve got an agenda.

There isn’t an agenda other than to be successful. And that’s what Nick was really fantastic at in understanding what I was trying to achieve and it wasn’t to do anything to him or his function. It was to make sure we were successful as an organization.

And he came from the same mindset of we’re here to be successful together as a team. This isn’t one or the other or two different departments. We’re a unit.

And the two is we just worked really, really well communicated in a regular basis. In fact, most days when we’re talking to each other we just had a partnership truly formed. And it resulted in what was a very lean pipeline when I walked through the door into a very healthy pipeline and growth in the organization.

The end of the day, Richard, why do we do this? We do it so we get that bottom line generating pipeline. That’s what we do it for. And even more so I’d say in this year that our sales team expect to see the pipeline before they have to find it.

And that’s what Nick was able to work with me and we were able to do together. And he’s a fantastic guy. Success built on trust.


Yeah, that’s it. I mean, that’s a great example, Dave of the power of trust and the power of people working to the same agenda and the same goal. We try and drink our own Kool-Aid at durhamlane.

So we talk about being the middleware that connects sales and marketing together. So we formed a RevOps unit. So we have sales, marketing, account management all working together, all aiming for the same goal communicating and aiming to be as collectively successful as we can be together.

Don’t see that in a lot of places. I think it’s got a lot better in it. It is getting better.

And perhaps some of our listeners will be sitting there going, well, we do this too, which is great. But I think that having the people at the top when they’re connected and working to the same rhythm and to the same goal, that’s when you can start really seeing that success come through.


Yeah, absolutely.

And I think you often see sales and marketing director. I think businesses are trying to achieve that because they feel when it’s two separates they’re not seeing that cohesion, that working togetherness that you want to achieve and trying to find it. I’ve certainly through my time, I’m only really talking about one person where it was perfectly in sync.

But it will can, there is partnerships I’ve had with other teams, but has it been as good as what I did with Nick? Probably not. Can it be improved on? 100%. But I do think it’s a bit like back in the day when I was talking about a move from sales to from an implementation point of view, I had a challenge and I asked to look after the implementation point of view because that’s my world was before, but we had conflicting interests because I was selling and they were implementing and I was the thing in the middle and it was a bit of a conflict.

And I do believe that sales and marketing should be separate, but find that cohesion together at the top as you just mentioned there just now. And if you’ve got it here and it’s working, it’s a blueprint you could take and move into other businesses and even better. It’s certainly something that needs to be pushed.


Absolutely. And I would also caveat and say we’ve got a long way to go ourselves. So talk about blueprints. We were going to talk about building teams and I guess listening to our conversation so far, it’s what has worked, what hasn’t worked, understanding, learning, looking to drive on and be the best version of yourself. So talk to us how that’s manifested in the way that you build teams.


So I suppose it’s worth taking it back to where I was as a sales person, as an individual before and how it manifested into a team, very much a team mentality and what I look for in teams.

People who may listen to this and only remember me as a BDM and before so some people as an engineer. As an engineer, I had a very different mindset, but I found when I moved into a BDM that I became this lone wolf is the phrase, although I hate using it, it’s actually the phrase everybody knows in terms of this individual who’s only on one path. The unfortunate thing with that is the people who I worked with didn’t see a good side of me.

My clients love me and my source of opportunities, they love me as well because I treated them the way what I needed to get out of them. Let’s be frank and honest. I hit targets on a regular basis.

I excelled, if I’m honest, in doing my role, but where I’d failed massively was the team who did work with me day to day, the delivery teams, the customer service teams, the internal administration teams. I was poor in terms of looking back at that. Now, my engagement with them and how I treated them, how I communicated to them and my directness.

Being Glaswegian as well, my voice can be a little bit harsh sounding. So sometimes it’s not always meant, but sometimes I can use it to my need and it wasn’t a good starting point from where I was, but I didn’t know that. That’s not something I knew.


Wasn’t that interesting though, from where we started today’s conversation, you’d been an engineer and you knew what it was like to be the guy that you were now putting other people, you know, putting that onto other people yourself.


Yeah, absolutely. And I think if I’m honest, as a BDM, one thing when you move into sales that you need to grasp very quickly, and I say this to the younger guys that come in, is the pressure of a target is very sobering at times, you know, you realise, and it’s something you have to learn to deal with.

And I think in my early career, I didn’t deal with it the way I should have. It created a pressure on me that I had to run 100 miles an hour. And as long as I was hitting my target, the world was okay.

And it didn’t matter what carnage I’d caused behind me and people lying in the street and robbery maybe, you know. And I often talk, and now targets is something that doesn’t, it’s not even something I focus on in terms of a pressure point of view. You know, I have a drive and always want to be number one, got to smash no matter what.

But from a dealing with that, it’s a real lesson that you have to come to and learn that how you manage that yourself. And I don’t think I did that in my early career very well. And that pressure I put on myself to achieve target was a negative impact on others that were working with me.

My intolerance to not having it, working at my pace and a lack of, my sales team will laugh at this statement, a lack of empathy was the biggest thing I had.


So the pressure coming from your desire to hit targets meant that you were doing whatever needed to be done to hit the target with no real empathy about what that might mean to others.




Yeah, and that manifests in all sorts of carnage because I think the word that you used there.


Yeah, it absolutely did. Yeah, I wasn’t a good fellow employee.


And do you remember the moment, Dave, when you recognised that in yourself?


I’d like to claim that what I actually had as one of my, one of the directors had a one-to-one with me and, you know, it was a great one-to-one because I was hitting targets, how it was great and I won’t use the word he used in the room, but he introduced me to how to win friends and influence people.


Okay, yeah.


And that, and I was very new.

I wasn’t great at school, didn’t come out of school fantastic, wasn’t academic in an individual. Reading was not something I did. And even still now, I do read, but I have more audiobook than anything else.

But he bought me that book and gave me in the one-to-one. And the coming to light was when I started reading that. There’s a lot of things I did right.

And it’s, the thing about How to Win Friends and Influence People, it’s an old book from a different period, but such the basic fundamentals of suit resonates so much. And I still read it now. I still go back and recap on things, but it had such a massive impact on me as an individual to reflect on myself for work life, but also personal life, you know, which your wife wasn’t too happy with because I was learning new skills to manage her but she’s now caught back up.

But the reality was that was that it was at that point that started changing my mindset of how I conduct myself. A lot of it and as I moved on to different businesses, if I’m honest as well, there’s an immaturity in me at the time of being alpha male, you know, showing the glass region. And I’m, you know, I’m unstoppable and I don’t really care what anybody has to say.

So there’s an immaturity in me as well. And what it allowed me to do is learn more about me as an individual to remove the barriers, remove the falseness and just be me because I’m not, I’m not a horrible person. Sales team will argue the point of that.

But the reality is it was just about me being comfortable in my skin without having to put a pretense on anybody. And that, that didn’t happen overnight. That was a transition that happened over a couple of roles that I had in a period of time.

And when we met when I was at TSG, I was going through that period of learning, but that was the fundamental start.


That’s excellent. I always, I always think it’s really important to pinpoint those moments.

So that’s, that’s great. And clearly not something that changes overnight and not something for listeners to be thinking about as well. I mean, my biggest takeaway from that is at least you picked the book up and read it because a lot of people would be given the book and it would go on the shelf and I don’t need that.

Whereas you were clearly at the right moment. The manager at the time knew when the time was right and you followed that and it sort of changed, changed your path, which is, which is amazing. How, how do you, how do you use that learning with the teams that you’re, that you’re building these days today then?


Yeah, so I take, you know, I look back at myself.

So yeah, we went over a rabbit hole there, didn’t mean that’s typical of me, but I take that learning and looking at myself is when I think about the businesses I go into. So generally in the last few years, I’ve went into organisations where it’s a rebuild of a sales team. We’re starting the ground up with either taking some sales team out or putting some people in or just reshaping the sales team.

But one of the biggest challenges that I have is that, we talked a little bit about remarketing, but also that delivery aspect, building trust between departments, changing the culture and the organisation. It’s a big, big part of what I do, you know, and that culture leads from how we set the tone and sales and what the expectation is from the other departments and generally when I walk in, the trust in sales is, is completely gone. And I’d say that where I am just now, that has certainly been one of the biggest challenges to make sure that our delivery operations side of the organisation and marketing can trust us as a sales function to do the right thing and not sell the wrong thing in.

So when I go to build sales team, the individuals I look for, I want new guys, people say to me, oh, proper new business people, they’re not really teams, they’re lone wolves, I’m like, no, no, no, that’s just convenient, you know, because I was a lone wolf and I’d still say I’ve got the traits just now of doing so much. In fact, HR were talking to me the other day, they’re saying, you need to release some of this, you know, and hand out, let other people do it, you know, but the, what I look for in my sales team is that, yeah, I want that hungry desire and I want to achieve, I want, you know the thing, I’m sure you look for it yourself when you’re hiring people, general curiosity in a salesperson, they generally are interested, they ask the next question, they pull on the thread, that’s what I want, so they’ve got to come with that mindset of, not only from a sales point of view, the curiosity, intrigued with what they do and passionate about what they do, but they understand that our sales team is a function of a bigger business and a team together, we pull together, all right, we do not sell anything in our world without my pre-sales team being able, sales team to do that, but equally, we can’t sell it without our delivery team helping educate us during the sales cycle, in fact, during our process, we bring the delivery teams into the sales cycle because they hold far more gravitas of a client than sales available.


The client wants to speak to the people who do the job and speak the same language, the salesperson is, yeah, I always think of our job as with the conductor, not the orchestra, we’re managing the various parts, but you might remember from the program at TSG, the durhamlane Mantras, and this isn’t one of our mantras, but it’s, we call it our belief equation and it strikes me from very similar to what you’ve been talking about, we talk about belief times knowledge, so knowing what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, understanding your world, that gives you confidence, not arrogance, I think if you don’t have the knowledge, you can come across as arrogant, but belief plus knowledge gives you confidence, times that by understanding, so what is my prospect, my customer trying to achieve, what might be helpful to them, how might that work, when would that happen, how would that operate, what might we do to help them here, that’s when you get high performance, and as you’re looking for curiosity, you used the word, it’s a similar thing, it’s that insatiable desire to be inquisitive.


Absolutely. So important. That’s from a sales acumen point of view, but they’ve got to come in with that mindset that they’re not the all seeing eye, the only functioning and work because of the bigger business need, because of delivery do their job, because marketing do their job, because of customer serve are fantastic in there, program directors are in there and accounts because they’re global organizations, but they’re absolutely a tool that we should use within there, it’s a team game and that’s probably my biggest mantra to my guys that we operate with everybody else, not in silo of everybody else and when I look for individuals when I’m recruiting, that’s generally what I get, I’m trying to achieve.

I also, a big part of my, that we kind of talked about earlier on is that want to be better, that own self-development, that own, one of my interviewing thing I will ask, talk to me about your own self-development, I did something a lot a few years ago, and this is when I was rolling out to another sales team and trying to encourage if they would do self-development and I says to them, okay, if I put a training course on for you to help learn yourself, how many can you show of hands and I had 12 guys in the room, show of hands of who would all be happy to join on that training course and they all put their hand up no problem at all, I says, tell me if I was going to charge you a thousand pound for that training course, would you want to do it? I kid you, there was maybe only three or four that put their hands up and that told me a big story about the people I had in that room, are they the right individuals for what we’re trying to achieve here? Some were and some changed their mindset into it, some are a wee bit older in the space and you know what it’s like, older generation we’re kind of like, we’ve been there, done that, got the t-shirt, learning isn’t something I need to be doing, but it’s something I know and every single interview I ask about your own self-development, what have you done to date to help you as an individual get better at what you do?


And there is knowledge, support, learning at your fingertips and probably it’s so easy to capture people just forget to do it, right? That’s a great question to ask and everyone is willing to say yes I’ll do that but are you willing to dip into your own pocket to do it? That’s when you start pulling out the performers and the people with that desire and ambition. When you build a team then do you have sort of, and I guess your team is all different sizes but you’re looking for team players, you’re looking for people that are inquisitive and curious, you’re looking for people that have empathy I guess and you build from those grounds do you have a scorecard or a framework that you use or is it mainly through getting to know them?


Yeah, I’d say it’s the latter it’s generally getting to know them. I used to actually have a process where pre-COVID they would, you know, because everything’s done via Teams now and so on and you maybe, hopefully, maybe not seen it.

I generally advertise jobs as myself I generally do a video on LinkedIn and say I’m looking for jobs which seems to work really well because they get to see who the bosses are in a sense and you know


Good qualifier!


Yeah, it absolutely is it absolutely is but I used to do a thing where I’d invite them to the office and then put them up in a hotel and they’d take them out for a drink and food but it was to put them in a more social environment and relaxed environment so I could get to see them as individuals and how they would fit into my team you know it’s a lot more difficult now because everything is through Teams and I still can meet other people but I equally am guilty of I can get more done I can facilitate I can go on without having to travel to see people so it’s more of the getting to know things there is certain criteria and I set during an interview process that they have to show me and talk me through in a mindset because I have a methodology I work to and all that good stuff so I have that element but it’s generally I want good people and it’s the go for a pint test you know whether I go for a pint with this individual and if I would generally they would be in a good space and thankfully I don’t come across too many that I am in a negative space with, there is unfortunately sales people out there that have that arrogance you talk about that feel as if I’m lucky to be talking to them – it’s a mutual two way thing.


Yeah absolutely you know good okay well that’s a virtual pint over Teams, not quite as good as the real thing. But there we go.


Absolutely not.


Okay David it’s been fascinating to chat through your journey so far and I know there’s actionable insights that we’ve ticked off throughout the conversation is there anything else that you’d like to share just before we move into our ask the experts session is there anything else that you’d like to share with the audience, that can take away and action immediately? If you were your younger self perhaps listening to this podcast?


Yeah, I think number one thing I suppose I look at is I wish I had learned to self-educate sooner. I wish I had I’d get into that equally I take it as from a sales profession point of view my attitude towards sales was wrong you know and didn’t see it for the role it can be you can absolutely have a wonderful life doing this you can earn good salary to really give your life, your family, a certain lifestyle – and it’s a role you should really be explored and people should look at it – because you don’t go to university because you don’t get a degree and people maybe look down at it, as opposed to giving it the real good as it should get but what I learned through the self-education in sales not only my own personal stuff through things like How to Win Friends Influence People, and other things – but other books that are all around sales and how you can be better at what you do, you know? I run MEDDIC Sales Methodologies my methodology through any of the businesses they go into but there’s tools around that of how you can be just be better at what you do and truly invest in it so if you are going into sales I’d say you want to invest that time.


It’s interesting – we did a podcast recently with Mark Ash, who’s the CRO of Conica Minolta and who a long term durhamlane customer, and we had a great conversation about the professionalism of selling and Mark said one of the challenges which I agree with is there’s no bar to entry.


Yes which is why I think it has the reputation it has but also it means that there’s more of a requirement for the people that really want to become sales professionals to be absolute self-starters and self-learners-




-because there isn’t that framework out there, so if you want to do it go and do it – because the rewards and the opportunities and what sales gives you back are just unbelievable.


Absolutely – but because there isn’t that pathway you have to really want to do it rather than just being put into it and it happening to you


Well I take that one more step further as well you’re absolutely the individual has to want to do that but I’d say there’s a responsibility on me as a sales leader because although I look for it within the sales people I hire it’s an obligation on me for the younger team that are coming through or the people that are in my team to enable that learning so everybody that starts in my team gets Mark Weinberg’s Simplified Sales book from me when they start, they may choose to read it, they may choose not to – then I move into the challenge or I move into different books. I facilitate the ability to do it and that’s driven out of the fact that I believe that the generation in sales now is very different to where I was, I was very much just left to it and get on with it and produce the magic and it builds a resolve in you. It’s why I always think people should go cold calling – it’s part of their career cycle just because they get used to getting told no and pushed back or saying why have you phoned, me I’m not interested in talking to you particularly, CFOs – but the education that I never got from sales directors or leaderships within the businesses is almost a blueprint of what I try not to do, and I try to ensure that I’m facilitating that ability to learn as best I can, and I’m generally interested in that individual and how I can help them get better at it. And there’s so many things I’m sure you’re doing the same through your career that you learn and you go I’m not going to do that or you’ve done something a certain way before you’re going to make sure you pivot it slightly to get it better so I’m constantly learning myself so I’m not by any means perfect with my guys at all but I think there’s a responsibility as a sales leader to make the effort to teach your guys how to get this done and do it well doesn’t mean I’m the best salesman in the world that’s for sure but I can try and facilitate that ability for them to learn one thing sales people will tell you no time to do that no time to do it so it’s about blocking that out you have to make the time time never creates itself does it very good we got a question from Alice Dave – we perhaps have answered some of this already but there may be something else we can pull out but what are some of the most common barriers to achieving sales and marketing alignment?


We covered a lot of this off and I’ll reiterate myself here again, and I’m sorry if it’s repeating, but generating that trust between the two individuals. Communicating, being clear on expectations for both parties to ensure that you’re pulling in the same direction and both parties will get the output they want from it. But fundamentally, the core of it is trust between the two.

That’s probably the things I’d say that gets you to the point you need to get to. Yeah, absolutely. So that openness to work towards a common goal as well.


Dave, I think it’s been a brilliant talk. Hopefully, it’s been quite therapeutic for you, actually. Really, really enjoyed the chat with you.

And again, thanks for sharing your learnings. I think there are so many really tangible, practical things people hopefully listening to this podcast can go out and just do, whether it’s buying How to Win Friends and Influence People or any book that has been recommended to them, going to their boss and saying, this is how I want to get better, help me. And just thinking about their practice and where they want to get to.

So loads of brilliant stuff. Thank you so much. We’re going to finish with our last question, which is often the hardest.

We have a bit of a laugh over it in terms of how complicated it seems to be for people. But we have the Insiders Spotify playlist. So we have a playlist with all of our guests have the option to choose a track.

Doesn’t have to be meaningful for them from a work point of view, but it might just be a track that makes them happy or makes them think of selling or whatever it might be, or their biggest deal, whatever it might be. So have you had a chance to think what you would like added to our list?


Yes. And my default was almost to go to Oasis because that’s my era and everything’s great there.

But the reality is there’s a song that I play often just to get me get it going and make it happen and really just puts a smile on my face. And that’s Firestarter by Prodigy.


Oh, nice. Excellent.


So it wakes you up in the morning, let’s put it that way.

Richard: Brilliant. Yeah, I can just imagine that at sort of half six in the morning. Excellent. Well, we’ll close up now, Dave, but really, again, appreciate your openness and transparency.

I think it’s been just so great. I think the journey is really not uncommon for many people that you’ve been on, but I think you’ve probably taken it further than many do. But you’ve also been very honest about where you came from and some of that process of how you got to where you got to and into being a very successful sales leader.

And I know your team follow you. That is probably the biggest accolade that one can get from a management point of view. Right.

So congratulations on that. And thanks so much for being on the Insiders. Thank you very much.


I really appreciate the opportunity to do this. And hopefully it’s been worthwhile for you. Great.


Thank you. Thanks, Dave. And thank you to everyone for tuning in to the Insiders.

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