VO: Hi, and welcome to the Insiders by durhamlane, where we get perspectives from industry thought leaders about strategies that are unifying marketing and sales cycles to help accelerate growth inside your world.

Richard: Welcome to the Insiders by durhamlane, an industry podcast that connects the world of marketing and sales one guest at a time. I’m your host, Richard Lane.

I’m co-founder and chief commercial officer of durhamlane. And today I’m thrilled to be joined by Jamie McKenzie. This isn’t Jamie’s first appearance on the Insiders.

He joined us all the way back in episode 23 of series one. At that time, Jamie was chief marketing officer of Pluxy, which was part of the Sodexo group. Since then, he’s taken a leap into becoming an author, a speaker and a storytelling coach.

And we’re going to get into that really is the purpose of this episode in a lot more detail. So, Jamie, absolutely brilliant to have you back on the show. And thanks so much for being with us.

Jamie: Richard, pleasure to be back in a slightly different context this time. But equally excited about what we’re going to be talking about. So, yeah, thanks again for having me back.

Richard: I really appreciate it. Brilliant. Well, I’m going to get the cat out of the bag, Jamie, and start off by saying I’m the proud owner of your book, 28 Bags of Sprout Storytelling with Impact, which is going to be the focus for today, particularly helping our listeners think about how they can use storytelling in their day-to-day business and personal environments, work life, etc.

Before we do that, perhaps you could just bring our listeners up to speed with who you are, where you’ve come from, and what you’re doing now.

Jamie: Thanks, Richard. Well, I think, you know, when you got the book, hopefully when you got that Amazon notification that 28 bags of sprouts were turning up, I hope you had your driveway cleared, you know, from that respect.

But no, thanks again. And, yeah, I mean, you know, I’ve, you know, as I kind of probably explained on the last time I was on, spent the last 20 years across different international brands, Toshiba, Samsung, and Sodexo, and what is now Pluxee. Across leadership positions.

And I’ve always been in kind of sales and marketing roles, product, commercial development, go-to-market. And that’s always been a big part of what I’ve done. So I’ve done that for quite amount of time.

And I just kind of decided it wasn’t an immediate decision. It was kind of a building decision that I fancied a change, just to kind of do something different. And I remember being on the show last time and having a conversation with you around about the importance of impact or more so, you know, impactful communication and storytelling’s contribution to that.

And I told a story at the time, which was about 28 bags of sprouts. And it was about how in the late 90s, I sold 28 bags of sprouts on Christmas Eve at my local Greengrocers. And this is a story that I told then at an interview during my placement year at university that kind of got me my first role at Toshiba.

And it’s because I told that story that kind of made me stand out from everybody. And I remember that telling that story on the show. And you turn around and say, do you know what? That’ll make a great title for a book.

And something happened in that moment. A seed was planted, a little bit of soil and water was dropped on top. And I remember vividly leaving the show and thinking to myself, that would actually make a great title for a book.

So kind of skip forward a little bit of time and a little bit of nurturing of an idea in my own head. And I kind of took the decision to kind of walk away from the corporate world for the time being and try something new. And storytelling has always been a big part of my life.

I think even from telling that story over 20 years ago, it’s always been an important friend to me. And I’ve always recognized the importance of communication between people and the impact that the communication can have, especially in the world of sales and marketing in particular. So I thought, why not write about this topic? And so I kind of put pen to paper or kind of fingers to keyboards, as it were, at the beginning of October last year.

And then the end of February was when I released it. So it’s self-published, written, edited by myself. And yeah, within the first four weeks, it became a top five bestseller in business communication on Amazon, which is awesome.

And I’d like to say the rest is history, but it’s only really been four weeks since then. So it’s all super new, super fresh. A bit of a crazy journey that’s filled with many feelings, which I’m sure we’ll explore later.

But yeah, delighted that I’ve done it and super proud and just excited about sharing what I think is a superpower with as many people as possible, Richard.

Richard: Well, firstly, Jamie, massive congratulations. Thank you.

As someone that said they were going to write a book 15 years ago and still hasn’t got around to doing it yet, I salute you for getting it done. Secondly, I’m really enjoying the read. So it’s really super easy to read your style and the excitement of the journey and the story that you’re telling through the book really comes across.

That’s brilliant. And I think the fact that the Insiders podcast has some link to the title of the book is also pretty cool. So let’s get into it.

We obviously want to deliver value back to our Insiders audience listeners. So give us the headlines from the book. What are you trying to achieve? Who’s it for? And what do you want people to be getting from it?

Jamie: Yeah, so I think the whole principle of it actually, storytelling kind of takes a second step initially because I believe the opportunity that exists really is that eight billion people on this planet all communicate with each other.

The communication is a currency between people that we use day in, day out. And in many respects, it becomes a bit of a hygiene. You take it for granted.

Even now we’re talking, before we’re talking, afterwards we’ll spend 80% of our day in communication. But I believe that impactful communication can make a significant difference and really kind of stand you out as an individual or as a team or as a culture really, within a business context in particular. So through my life, I’ve had this storytelling friend and I believe that I’ve kind of found a unique storytelling model that can help to level up the communication by following some simple steps, by following a process and applying it accordingly.

In some respects, people will see storytelling as kind of for that big moment, but actually I see storytelling for the every moment, every communication opportunity, whether it be an email, a social media post, podcast, whether it be a chat, whether it be a town hall meeting, whether it be a sales or marketing campaign, a pitch, you name it, it’s an activity of communication that you’re conducting. So the book is designed around that and through my own style, which you kind of put, you know, thank kindly mentioned there and also with insights from six other experts that I brought into the book, you know, on specific areas, which I thought were quite key, such as career development, you know, life coaching and energy, diversity and inclusion, even sports performance. We kind of coach the reader through the Sprout model, this kind of six layered model, which is there to ultimately to improve the impact that you make in your communications.

And it really is applicable to any scenario. And that’s part of why I kind of wrote it in the way that I did. In terms of who it’s for, you know, I’d like to think it’s for anybody that communicates, number one, which, you know, not all 8 billion people are going to buy it.

If they did, that’d be amazing, obviously.

Richard: Quite the target market.

Jamie: Quite the target, yeah.

So quite the opportunity there, Richard, in that respect. Certainly the addressable market, but no, joking aside, it’s written through a business lens. You know, it’s all based on my experiences over the last 20 years, again, predominantly through sales and marketing.

And, you know, you having read some of it as well, you’d see some of my successes that I’m proud of, but my absolute epic failures as well that are in the book and kind of everything in between, because I think, you know, that’s how you learn. And really it is there to help businesses, leaders, teams, you know, individuals across all functions, but I think specifically sales and marketing as well, to use a model that can level up their communication impacts and ultimately have a positive impact on business metrics, on their own performance, and more broadly their relationships with people. So that’s kind of a bit about the headline of the book and what it’s about.

The story of 28 Bags of Sprouts is what inspired it, really. And I kind of, you know, I really hope through the book that it, number one, raises the profile of storytelling in business. Actually, I think, you know, how many times do people on this call talk about storytelling, you know, in their organization, but how many times are you involved in a communication, you know, every day? So there’s an importance of raising the profile.

I think it’s about, you know, I hope the sprout model becoming a bit of a reference point that people can use on a day-to-day basis to improve the impact of communications. And also, you know, selfishly for me, it kind of, you know, promotes and shares me in an area that I’m passionate about in storytelling and how I can help with that as well. So in a nutshell, really, that’s kind of the premise of the book and who it’s for and what I hope to achieve with it.

Richard: Yeah, it’s great. And, you know, one of the things that I’ve always said, I’ve probably said it on the Insiders at some point in discussions that we’ve had, is that I, you know, I’m part of the happy trip up club. I tripped into the world of sales.

No one said, Richard, we think you’d make a great sales professional. Just took to it, you know, to use a cliche, like a duck to water. Why is that? Well, I think my own reflection is that it’s because I was just good at telling stories.

And that meant, what I mean by that is I would hear what my colleagues were saying to their prospects and customers, and then I would take those same stories and turn them into we rather than I. And you’re starting to help paint a picture for your potential customer and how you might be able to help them. If you’ve done some, I don’t think it was called discovery back then, but now it would be what you’d call discovery. But people, and you talk about this in the book, storytelling goes back to, you know, the very beginning, doesn’t it? So we’ve communicated through stories, whether that’s through language and stories or whether it’s through, you know, the story at its very basic bones.

So such an important concept. What I’ve really enjoyed about your Sprout model, and perhaps we can talk about that in a bit more detail in a second, at I guess a high level, because we don’t have time to go into it in full detail. But I think I’ve been telling stories through my career, which hopefully add value to my customers and help them understand what we could try and achieve together.

But I’ve not been doing it with a conscious structure. And I think your Sprout model brings that conscious structure into it. And so it’ll be great to spend a bit of time talking about that.

Before we do, I would love to understand the experience for you of writing the book. So how did it happen? Did you sit there one day and think I’m going to do it and then just did it? Or did you, you know, talk us through how that happened?

Jamie: So it’s, I think, because as I mentioned sort of at the top of the podcast, really, you know, it’s kind of some, I wouldn’t say it’s been something on my bucket list. It’s not like I must write a book, you know, but it wasn’t the case.

But, and typically what you’ll find is that I think with a lot of people now, they go through life experiences, they build their businesses and then they write the book. Whereas actually I’m kind of doing it the other way around. I’m kind of doing the book first, have the model and then build from that.

So I’ll let you know in about two years if that was a right or wrong decision.

Richard: Do you know the interesting thing is I did it the other way in the fact that I never thought I must write a book, but I’ve built a sales methodology Selling at a Higher Level. I’ve really got the outline for the book and I was going to do it like you.

And then I started my business and on day 10, I got busy. And I haven’t 13, 15 years later, I’ve not stopped being busy. So actually the book has gone on the need to do, but not quite yet pile.

Whereas, you know, I applaud you getting it done first and then using that to build the business. I think it makes a lot of sense.

Jamie: Well, I always knew that if I was going to do it, you know, like anything, I kind of always want to do well.

I didn’t want to do it like half-baked and I certainly didn’t want to use AI to help me at all with it. So the only way in which I could do it and it’d be a hundred percent authentically me is that I just focused and spent time. So it was, if I didn’t have the time to focus and I mean, actually, you know, in the week when I’d normally be in a kind of a day job, it’s very difficult.

So I completely understand what you’re saying, but the decision to actually do it actually was, I had a few drinks with my wife one night and I was talking about the book idea and she was, you know, really supportive. But what I did was I drew out on a piece of kitchen towel, the sprout model, and I explained it to her and then I told a story through it and she got really upset, not in a, oh my goodness, what are you doing? But as in a, you know, that was really impactful what you did. And she, at that moment, she just said, Jamie, you have to do it.

And that triggered me to do it. So how was it? It was actually a lot easier than I thought it would be. And the reason being when I reflect on it, Richard, is that, you know, my writing style is I write as I speak and I can talk a lot if I want to, albeit I can also be conscious about that.

So the words just flowed really. And I think as I wrote it in a model that I’d created and also with stories that I wanted to share and experiences, it just flowed really naturally. There’s a couple of writer’s blocks moments during that time.

And I’m lucky I live by the sea. So a little, you know, walk down the front, listening to a bit of reggae music and then eventually I’m like, right, come on Jamie, you know, and get straight back into it. So, but actually I did it and I had a designer that helped me with the cover and some of the illustrations inside.

Someone that used to work, well, still used to work in my old team who I’ve worked with for years and I think he’s a brilliant designer. So I always wanted him to help me with that. Yeah, and it was just a case of learning how to self-publish on Amazon.

And, you know, I’ve got 20 years of marketing, go-to-market sales experience. So I drew a little bit on that, albeit getting my hands really dirty again. You kind of realize what you forget when you’ve got a team around you.

And I think that’s probably the one thing that I say I’ve missed. I’ve spent 20 years working with people, working with teams, you know, lucky to have big teams around me, marketing teams. So when you’re doing it on your own, it’s so scary.

And I was WhatsAppping some of my old team, like all the time, and they were like, Jamie, please just leave us alone. Yeah, I’ve got some work to do. What should I do now, you know? But no, I really enjoyed it.

It’s been an interesting transition and actually it’s kind of inspired me to want to write more. I’ve got sort of a kid’s book that I’ve put in some agents. And yeah, I’ve really enjoyed the process of writing actually.

And yeah, hungry for that as well. Hungry for that as well.

Richard: Yeah, great. Well, I think that, as I said earlier, it comes through. So that’s great. So let’s talk a little bit about the Sprout model then.

So storytelling with impact. Do you want to just maybe give listeners an idea around the six layers and we can just chat that through a little bit? Yeah, absolutely.

Jamie: So the model itself, I kind of, being a marketeer myself, you know, every presentation has a model or a triangle in it.

So I’ve always kind of been around it through my life. So I wanted to create something that was kind of configurable, that people could follow at the very highest level, you know, for a very quick check. But also if they faced a complex situation, they could also go, you know, delve into more detail.

So, you know, whether you’re having a, sending a direct message or having a conversation with someone, you can use the six core layers of the Sprout model, which I’ll come on to in a second. Yeah. But you’ve also got 28 ingredients within those six layers that help you enrich it even more.

And so if you are, if you are organising an event for the day or say you had a major public speaking opportunity, you may well want to run your scenario through the whole thing, you know, and the 28 ingredients as well, because it just challenges you on every single point that I believe is super important. So about the Sprout model itself, if you can imagine a Sprout, obviously that’s my marketing branding part of me kicking in with the Sprout story.

Richard: We’ve cursed you now to just the color green, haven’t we?

Jamie: I know, I know.

Again, it’s funny actually, the chap who did my design, he was like, when that goes to print on the book, Jamie, the green’s not a great color. I’m like, thanks, thanks for that, you know, right at the end of the project. But yeah, so yeah, it’s all green.

It’s six kind of colors of green, but it’s six layers essentially. So if you can imagine a Sprout, you cross section that, you’ve got a core in the middle and that’s kind of the first layer and that’s what I call the impact layer. And that’s the first thing that you think about when you’re about to do a communication, you know, what is the impact that you want to make? The second layer is then kind of the, we’ll call the people layer.

And I know in marketing and sales, we talk about, you know, the audience, the argument segmentation, which I talk about, and that’s a big part of the people layer. Also recognising that everybody’s an individual as well, but actually the people layer goes into a bit more detail where it actually challenges you to ask, how do you want people to feel? You know, what are the emotions that you want to elicit in those people? Because we’re all human beings, whether we’re responding to an email campaign or a social media post or a sales pitch, you know, we’re still humans with feelings. So that’s an important consideration.

So that’s the people layer second. And then you move into kind of more of a traditional storytelling model, which is kind of your start point, which is about setting context and direction for what is about to come in your communicational story. You then have what I call the main event, which is the fourth layer.

And this is where you’re addressing the real core of like your communication. So it could be an opportunity, it could be a challenge, and then the action that addresses that directly. So you’re getting into the heart of it.

And then you’ve got the endpoint layer, which is the fifth layer. And that’s where you’re bringing clarity and conclusion to your communication. So whether that be a, you know, a next step, whether that be a call to action or whether it just be, you know, wait for more, there’s a form of conclusion that’s coming.

And there’s also something in there that I kind of call the lasting impression, which is about how do you want people to feel and think of you when you finish that? And then the final layer, so the sixth layer, is nurture. And it kind of circumvents the whole sprout. And the reason being is because I believe the nurturing is in everything that you’re doing.

So that’s how are you nurturing your communication with, you know, energy, with creativity, and I think really importantly with perspective, different perspectives as well. So these are different ingredients within that layer that just to help to keep your storytelling, you know, engaging. So it’s the six layers.

You’ve got impact, people, start point, main event, endpoint, and nurture. And if you work through those six, principally at a high level, it can coach and challenge you and it will level up your communication. And then you can delve into the 28 ingredients if you really want to get into more detail and explore more complex scenarios.

Richard: Yeah, I love that story in the book where you felt you’d delivered an absolute rocking pitch to your two presidents, I think it was. And then you said, what do you think? And they went, well, what? And so you sort of, and I’m always sort of coaching and training salespeople about, you know, closeout is we have to close things. And, you know, similar to that story there is you’d sort of done all the rest of it, including the main event, but you’d forgotten to finish off.

And so you end up having to go back and redo. And that’s not great for the first impression, is it?

Jamie: No, and given the seniority of them as well, as the UK and European president, and you’re absolutely right, you know, you think sometimes that you create this incredible story or this incredible piece of information with data and emotion, what have you, and you finish. Now you know that you’ve finished, but you’ve got to remember that your audience needs to know that you’ve finished.

And they were very much, well, yeah, what’s your point? And it’s like, wow, we spent an hour on this, you know, talking about it, engaging, and interestingly enough, it was an anonymized story, but, you know, there was a cultural element within that as well, in terms of one of the companies I worked for. And again, you know, for any of the listeners that are working with different cultures, not just, you know, domestically, but, you know, on a continent or, you know, beyond in a global environment, that’s a huge factor to consider, you know, miscommunication without intent happens all the time. And so being mindful of that’s really important.

So, you know, it was, yeah, I definitely, I learned from that. Next time, I was very clear with how to improve it. But, you know, you learn, don’t you? And then you adjust and you kind of go from there.

Richard: So firstly, thanks for sharing the model and we’ll let listeners know how they can get their hands on a copy of the book at the end of the podcast. But what are some of the misses that people make with their storytelling?

Jamie: So, like I said, I’ve sort of, I feel like I’m, I feel like I’m a natural storyteller. No one said to me, you should use stories to help craft your messaging and to build rapport and to help people to buy from you and to solve their problems.

No one ever said that to me, but I think just it sort of was something that happened a bit naturally. I was thrown in the deep end and I found that I could swim. What happens when people don’t tell stories or what’s the lessened impact? Do you see what I mean? It’s like, how can people that maybe don’t feel or if storytelling doesn’t come naturally to them, how might they embrace this and find a way forward? I think, you know, so when it comes to storytelling, well, I think one of the biggest misnomers out there, if I’m honest, is that, you know, people sometimes feel, and this isn’t the same for every, what I’m about to say, but that extroverts are excellent communicators, great storytellers, you know? Now extroverts say a lot, but extroverts also don’t say a great deal at the same time.

And so, you know, and I think there’s a message in there. So it’s not necessarily about the quantity of what you’re talking about. And even those listening who feel confident in inverted commas storytelling, you know, try and park that for a second because storytelling is essentially a structured communication, ultimately.

That’s kind of what it is, you know? Storytelling is a structured communication. And so when it comes to, you know, how can people start to become more comfortable and confident is finding a structure that works for them. Now, of course, I’m going to say the Sprout one is a great structure, but you know, but there are other storytelling structures.

You know, you pick one that works for you and then you practice it. You practice it, you know? And the beauty about it, Richard, is that practicing storytelling is absolutely free. You know, you don’t need subscription.

You don’t need equipment. You don’t need to do it at certain times of the day. You know, as long as you’re communicating, you can practice it and you can practice it safely.

And you can practice one component or you can practice, you know, the whole process. And it’s when you start to practice, they say that it’s about 21 days to create or change your behavior. The more you practice, the more you do, the subconsciously it will happen.

So exactly to your point, you know, you will be more comfortable with storytelling, more of a natural storyteller. And I’d like to think that I’m also kind of more of a natural storyteller, but I believe it’s a skill that can be coached and can be trained. And as I said, you know, the top, I think is a real superpower.

So just starting with a chosen model will get you going without any question for those listening. If, you know, if there was something that I think can make an immediate impact where people sometimes don’t think about using, it’s about what is that impact you want your communication to make? And I know it’s kind of the classic Simon Sinek, you know, start with why, but it’s so true because before, I think in the book I talk about it and I sort of, why do I get up? Why do I do this? Why do I do this? Why do I do everything I do because I want to achieve something? And it’s exactly the same with storytelling and communicating, you know, great storytelling, you start with what is the impact you want to make? And in the book, I talk about the six ingredients. And when you’re communicating, typically it’s one of these six things.

You either want to educate or you want to inform. You either want to influence or persuade or you either want to motivate or inspire. Broadly speaking, you’ll sit in typically one of those six areas.

There’ll be the odd exception, but in the main, that’s where they will land. And it could be more than one or two. Knowing that at the start of any communication that you do will give you a much better chance of getting the end result than if you hadn’t known that at the start.

So if you’re someone who’s desperately trying to persuade someone, but actually you’re taking more of an influencing stance, you’re not going to hit the mark because you need to go, well, you know this Richard, you need to go that little bit further to persuade someone. Whereas if you’re influencing, it will come, but it’s not going to come with immediate effect. So knowing these things are really important, I feel.

Richard: Yeah, and that’s a great point for this conversation, Jamie, I think, because, you know, when someone says storytelling, everybody has said it needs a beginning, a middle and an end. You cover that. But I think that impact bit and it’s that classic sort of Abraham Lincoln.

If I’m given six hours to chop down a tree, I spend the first four sharpening my axe. We do not spend – massive generalisation – We do not spend enough time thinking about what we’re doing before we do it.

And that’s one of those, you know, that impact piece for me was absolutely the first, what am I trying to achieve? Who am I delivering it to? And then this is what we’re going to do. So, yeah, I love the fact that you’re starting with the end in mind. You know, this is what we’re trying to achieve.

Jamie: Absolutely. And I think in the book, you know, I say, you know, when I talk about the impact layer and I go, you know, if there’s one thing I could tell Jamie of 20 years ago, starting out his, you know, marketing journey, just the one piece of advice I’d give him, think about your impact. Because honestly, the effectiveness of my activities would have changed significantly.

Richard: Excellent. Well, we only have so much time, so we’re not going to talk about all the ingredients. I do promise my mother that I have two sprouts every Christmas day.

So I’m not a massive fan. Although, actually, as I get older, I’m getting more accustomed to them. But I hadn’t really thought of them as a storytelling thing, but they’ve grown fonder to me because of this conversation, Jamie.

So you’ve done something good for the sprouts of the world. Well, for the sprout industry, I was going to say. There are another two, maybe another two or more being sold there.

So going to move us on a little bit. I think we’ve talked all the way through this discussion so far about how people can use storytelling to better their communication and achieve more. But we’ve got a question in from Hannah.

And that question is, what common challenges or pitfalls to sales and marketing professionals encounter when implementing storytelling techniques?

Richard: I think, for me, it’s not just storytelling. It’s any technique. Typically, people do it once and they don’t do it again.

Yeah. And it’s like with any model, and I think in any technique, it’s like anything. Your sport, you kick a football once and you don’t kick it again.

Well, you’re not going to improve. And it’s the same with anything. So I think I would answer that.

Do it once and keep doing it. Stick with it. Pick the technique that works for you, the storytelling technique.

As you said, storytelling is start, middle and end. That’s how we’ve been. That’s just life.

It’s always been like that since the start. Think of the extra elements for sure. If you do use the Sprout model, but stick with it.

Keep practicing it and keep using it. And you will see the impact because you’re tapping into the elements that human beings want, which is stories and a storytelling approach. And if you do, it’s in our human nature to respond to it.

So regardless of your communication, campaign, face-to-face, digital, physical, event, whatever. If you play that approach, you will always engage with human beings who for the time being are the ones kind of making those purchasing decisions and those decisions in business. And I think sticking with it is probably the thing I’d recommend.

Just keep going and it will eventually become part of your behavior, subconscious, and you’ll see the benefit and you’ll stand out. You’ll stand out.

Richard: Yeah, brilliant.

And just a thought I’ve had as we’ve been chatting, Jamie, you mentioned AI a few moments ago and it got me thinking, how might AI play a part in helping people tell better stories? Because you could feasibly put the Sprout model and all its ingredients into an AI modeling, couldn’t you? And then it could build that 40-minute impactful presentation for you. Absolutely.

Jamie: That’s a great business idea, Richard.

Thank you for that.

Richard: That’s your second one.

Jamie: That’s the second one, yeah, absolutely. Now, I think, so I talk about AI in the book, actually, and I talk about it within the nurture layer, within creativity.

And actually, it’s a really great question, actually, because someone did say to me the other day, Jamie, do you think AI will replace the need for storytelling? My view is no, I don’t believe that. I believe that storytelling as a principle and a methodology will always be there. It’s timeless, and even if you look at how technology’s evolved over the last 20 years, before AI, you’d had all these different advancements.

It’s always remained the same. So I think it will always be there. To your point, can AI help to enrich storytelling? Absolutely.

I’ll give you a, very quickly, a perfect example. So I’ve created a children’s version of the book for ages four to eight. I love it.

You know, I absolutely love it. I didn’t use AI to write it, storyboard it, rhyme it. I did all of that.

But what I did use AI for was to create concept images to help me visualise the story. So I’ve not gone out yet to pay an illustrator or potentially a publisher would source that for me, but I used it to help me in that creation process. So that’s an example of where I think it can work with it.

And I would always advise and say that absolutely use AI, utilise it in the context of storytelling. But the moment you lose that storytelling skill within yourself, you’re then subservient to needing technology. And I think that’s dangerous from a skillset within a human-to-human context.

So that’d be how I’d sort of answer that.

Richard: Interesting, yeah. I mean, what a fascinating space that we’re not just moving into, but we’re already in, right? So we’re all trying to work out where the ship is headed.

Absolutely. Jamie, it’s been fab having you back on the Insiders and sharing your story and the start of your new adventure. We always ask our guests for a song to add to our Insiders Spotify playlist.

Have you got a second one for us?

Jamie: Do you know what? I do actually. And I remember, so the first one I gave to you guys was an important one at the times that my dad had recently passed away and he’s an inspiration for what I’m doing. And I gave you a song.

And actually my next song is of a similar ilk. All my projects now moving forward are dedicated to my dad because I feel he’s in my gut inspiring me. So the song I choose is Praise Jar in the Moonlight, which is a reggae song and it’s by YG Marley.

And it was kind of released in line with the film around Bob Marley. So Praise Jar in the Moonlight would be my song that I add to the playlist.

Richard: Excellent, brilliant.

Well, thank you again for that. And you’re now one of a very few people who have more than one song added. I have about four because I host the Insiders and I couldn’t decide.

Anyway, it’s been, as I say, been great having you back with us, Jamie. Thanks so much. It would be wrong of me to not let listeners know that 28 Bags of Sprouts – Storytelling with Impact is available on Amazon right now.

We’ll put a link directly in the show notes so that people can go and buy it. I really recommend it. It’s a great read.

It’s a very easy read, but full of actionable insight and tasks that you try and get people to do, which I haven’t done all of those yet, but it’s a good effort to try and get me to do it. So thanks so much for being with us again, Jamie. Really appreciate it.

Jamie: Oh, and thanks for having me on. And remember, stories change lives. Don’t forget that. It’s an important part.

Richard: Thank you very much. Brilliant, thank you.

And obviously, as always, thank you for tuning into The Insiders. Please subscribe on your preferred podcasting site to ensure you’re notified of all new episodes as and when they’re published. And if you’d like to learn more about durhamlane and our unique method of selling at a higher level, which is pretty story-based in its own right as well, please visit durhamlane.com for more information.

So finally, thanks again for listening and probably to steal one of Jamie’s words, keep sprouting.

VO: The Insiders by Durham Lane. Subscribe today to never miss an episode.