Speaker 1:

Hi, and welcome to The Insiders by durhamlane, where we get perspectives from industry thought leaders about strategies that are unifying marketing and sales cycles to help accelerate growth inside your world.

Simon Hazeldine:

Hello and welcome to a special episode of The Insiders Sales and Marketing podcast. I’m Simon Hazeldine. I’m a Sales Transformation Strategist and Sales Performance Consultant. I’m also a keynote speaker and the author of a number of books on selling and negotiation. For today’s episode however, I’m handing over the hosting rains to my co-host Richard Lane, the CCO and Co-Founder of durhamlane, who are an inside sales partner that help businesses to grow their revenue through an integrated sales and marketing methodology. Richard, feel free to introduce this week’s special guest.

Richard Lane:

Thank you, Simon. And hi to everybody. This episode is true to providing the inside track as ours with this guest in person at durhamlane HQ for a conversation where we put the headphones on and got live and dangerous. I spoke with Graham Hawkins. Graham is the Founder and CEO of SalesTribe. He visited durhamlane recently, travelling from Melbourne, Australia. Graham is an inspirational speaker and leader in the world of digital and data lead selling. Absolute pleasure to host him. We had a really interesting discussion about salespeople, the sense makers and salespeople as the storytellers. I’m excited for you to hear some of Graham’s insights.

Simon Hazeldine:

Fantastic. Looking forward to hearing it.

Richard Lane:

Hi, it’s Richard Lane here from durhamlane, and I’m delighted to be joined by Graham Hawkins from SalesTribe. Really thrilled to have you with us at durhamlane HQ and have the opportunity of doing this brief podcast with you. So welcome.

Graham Hawkins:

It’s been an eye opener, Sir, being up in this part of the world and my first trip to Newcastle. So yeah, great to be here.

Richard Lane:

And you brought the sunshine with you!

Graham Hawkins:

Of course.

Richard Lane:

Which we always appreciate. So, thank you for that.

Graham Hawkins:

Of course.

Richard Lane:

Why don’t you give us a thumbnail sketch of SalesTribe so listeners can understand what you guys do and then let’s weave the conversation and see where we go?

Graham Hawkins:

Look, we’re very focused as you know, Richard on digital sales enablement. So, helping businesses come to terms with what’s now required to be successful in the global digital connected economies. The world has changed. The buyer now has access to information. They can serve themselves in many cases. They’re at least, according to some, they’re at least 60 to 80% of their way through decision-making before they reach out to a salesperson. And in many cases, they can solve their own problems. So, we are helping businesses come to terms with all of that. And what that means in terms of being able to change the sales playbook, to match the buyer journey. It’s a big focus on what we do.

Richard Lane:

Absolutely. And I think as we ran a session, didn’t we yesterday, and I think what really came through to me there and durhamlane as an outsourced integrated marketing and sales business, we take real pride of representing our customers at the very front end of their acquisition journey with their prospects. And it just struck me that a lot of the things we take for granted in terms of how we create opportunity, the tactics we deploy from digital sales, omnichannel, et cetera, feel normal. But actually, I think out in the big wide world, people are still coming to terms of how do I engage digitally? Would you agree with that?

Graham Hawkins:

Oh, a hundred percent agree. Look because of the way sales has evolved over the journey, over decades, we have a prevailing attitude still that sales is a numbers game. And all you need to do is make as many calls as possible and have as many meetings as possible. And that will result in sales success. And, of course, that no longer is the case. So, everybody, regardless of industry, now their biggest challenge, I think Richard, is how do I start a conversation?

Graham Hawkins:

We said yesterday, opening is the new closing. So how do you get a conversation started with an educated buyer who has access to information and who no longer wants to meet you in person? So, these are some of the challenges we’re dealing with. And I think showing people how to do that the right way now, I think logically, most of our clients know they need to shift. They need to change. They just don’t know where to start. And I think having an outsourced capability that you can bring in that can be embedded inside the business and show them how to fill the top of the funnel the right way, I think personally, that’s the perfect scenario.

Richard Lane:

And I think there’s that exciting opportunity to be the bridge. The bridge between, and this is where SalesTribe and durhamlane I think work really well together because we can create opportunity through MQL to SQL, to conversion. Or we can just take MQL as being created and convert to SQL and augment the proactive outbound work we’re doing. But then really importantly, it’s about coaching and teaching and supporting the AEs and the Business Development Managers within, inside the client to be able to do some of that themselves too. And is that where is that where you spend most of your time, from SalesTribe’s perspective?

Graham Hawkins:

It is, and look, let’s get one of the big challenges out on the table right now. We can bring in all of this modern thinking and we can say, “Look, just change your sales playbook to match the buyer journey”. And we can do the buyer journey mapping and the ideal customer profiling and the buyer per se. We can do all of that, but unless you’ve got senior leadership inside the client, recognizing and acknowledging that you have to change the way you measure, manage and reward your salespeople, this terrible thing that we’ve talked about, Richard, the terrible tyranny of short-termism, where everyone’s end of month, end of quarter, hurry quicker, faster. You have to start to bring in some of that top-down thinking as well, as well as teaching the SDRs and of course the AEs and the BDMs, how to embrace these new skills. So, if you like, a bit of a pincer movement.

Richard Lane:

Yes. And another interesting thing is, you look down at the sea of durhamlane is in front of you in Newcastle. And then also the biggest sea of durhamlane is online through the teams’ lens. I was sitting there and we discussed this at the end of the session, but I don’t think it’s as big a change for some of these guys. They’ve grown up with the internet, they’ve grown up with all of these tools and it’s just the norm. So, I wonder whether people like you and I, and also leaders in organizations and probably lots of BDMs and AEs incorporates, have got a bigger learning curve than some of those coming up behind us.

Graham Hawkins:

Was it Yoda that said you have to first unlearn what you’ve learned?

Richard Lane:

Yes.

Graham Hawkins:

So older guys-

Richard Lane:

I’ve got over the fax by the way, Graham. So no longer do I wait for the fax machine to buzz and to purr for the order to come through. That used to be one of my major moments.

Graham Hawkins:

Yeah. Of course, me too. Showing our age here, Richard, but no doubt. I think people who’ve been in sales in that brute force sales model that I grew up with, they’re having to unpick bad habits and they’re having to relearn some new skills. Your team here, I was impressed with A, the growth mindset and B, the digital native nature of how they go about doing their job. So, I think it’s not as big a leap before the younger generations, no doubt. Because, let’s be clear, a buyer now resides online, and these younger generations are more used to engaging with the modern tools and the data and the platforms. So-

Richard Lane:

They’re sitting here listening to us going, “Of course they do”.

Graham Hawkins:

Yeah, of course. Exactly.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. Whether it’s something you’re comfortable with or not, it’s a huge shift. We need to move into it. We need to use the plethora of tools around them available to support us. At the end of the day our mention of number one, business fit, business value, developing long term relationships, I think that applies no matter what communication mechanism you are using, you need to be relevant. You need to be concise. You need to be topical. You need to be action orientated. And if you follow a methodology like that, then you should be engaging with people and let’s face it, if they don’t want to engage with you, then maybe it’s just not right, right now. And that changed my mind when I first thought of that because suddenly it became not personal. Actually, when it is the right time, if you’ve been relevant and you haven’t spammed someone over and over again, then you should be top of their list for people to call.

Graham Hawkins:

Correct. Yeah. There’s a new mindset required. I dumb it down and I say, “Look, we just have to learn how to sell smarter in a world of smarter buyers, educated buyers with access to information”. Our role is no longer the information giver. It’s the sense maker. So I’ve got to be good with data. I’ve got to know how to find that little gold nugget that the buyer might not be able to find themselves and then communicate that to them in a way that makes sense. The other mindset shift, I think, which your team gets Richard, is that buyers don’t care how much until they know how much you care. So, demonstrate to them that you understand who they are, that you know their business and then be willing to personalize to their context. Teach them something. And then if you can, anticipate their future needs as well. So don’t just solve my current problem, solve my future problems as well.

Richard Lane:

So, I talk about us being the storytellers. But it’s actually both, isn’t it? You need to be the sense maker and the storyteller, because you make sense through stories.

Graham Hawkins:

A hundred percent.

Richard Lane:

You make it relevant through stories of how you’ve helped people like the people that you are trying to help. And that makes sense to the individual and they can more typically align to a similar situation than we ever could in our world. So-

Graham Hawkins:

Well, the buyer’s grappling with so much information now. So many suppliers, global suppliers, so quite often they don’t know which way to go. And that’s why you get a lot of stuck deals in the middle of the funnel, right? They’re just not sure. They can’t decipher all of the information. So if you can come in as a salesperson and be the sense maker, and then as you say, make sense with a story that taps into emotion, you’ve got it nailed.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. We should brand that: ‘Sense Maker Storytellers’. That’s the way forward. Yeah, absolutely. And you, in your business SalesTribe, you’re based in Melbourne, Australia. You’ve got a global reach through a platform that is available to everyone. How many million users on LinkedIn?

Graham Hawkins:

800 hundred million plus.

Richard Lane:

800 hundred million plus! Not connected to all of them, but you’re connected to many. Why don’t you share just a story of how some of those enterprise corporate deals that you’ve won of, have come about. Would you be able to do that?

Graham Hawkins:

Yeah. Happy to. Look, it still to this day surprises me and sometimes I pinch myself when I think about a little Australian company, founded five years ago, can have clients in the UK here, like Lloyd’s Bank and Rentokil, and S&P Global and PwC in the States, all because of what you just said. And that is creating visibility on the world’s greatest business platform that’s ever been produced, LinkedIn. So yeah, I began the journey really briefly, Richard. I began the journey six years ago, publishing content on LinkedIn and not really knowing what I was doing to be honest, but I decided I’d try and carve out a little position of thought leadership. I’d been in sales long enough to know a little bit about what I’m talking about. So just started pushing out content, but in parallel building my network and the more content I pushed out, the more opportunity I got to build my network, the bigger the network got, the more people saw the content and the two just started to almost grow a life of their own.

Graham Hawkins:

So next thing I’m getting inbound leads and inquiries from all parts of the world, simply because I was taking the view that visibility creates opportunity. So just get yourself out there. Not everybody’s going to like you or your message. And like you, I learned to accept that that’s not always going to be the case, but there are some, and you only need one or two really important clients like Lloyd’s Bank and whatnot. And away you go. And we’ve built our business in five years from scratch to having now clients all around the place. It’s unbelievable.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. It’s a great story. And it goes back to that old adage of content is King, I guess, doesn’t it? Yeah. Context.

Graham Hawkins:

I go the next step now. It’s no longer King, it’s the whole Royal family.

Richard Lane:

So one of my managers back in my corporate life used to, when I worked in eLearning, but it used to be build it and they won’t come. But actually, what you’re doing is you’re creating it and you’re putting it somewhere they already are. And that’s creating interest and you are genuine, and so genuine being genuine, I think, creates interest for people anyway. Our third mantra would be: be interested to be interesting. The more interested we are in other people, funnily enough, the more they become in you. And then being able to turn that into a conversation is key. And then you could then progress through your sales process.

Graham Hawkins:

Yeah. And look, here’s the thing that most of these social media gurus and they’re diamond dozen now, of course, here’s the thing they won’t tell you. It’s all very well to create the visibility. Anyone can push out posts and anyone can get likes and followers and shares and all of that stuff. The hard work is really in the constant relationship building and the nurturing.

Richard Lane:

The engagement.

Graham Hawkins:

The engagement, correct. So, I don’t shy away from telling people the truth about that. There’s no silver bullet here. There’s no quick fix. As I did, you’ve got to build those relationships over time. Establish credibility, nurture relationships and good things start to happen. We call it “encouraging serendipity”.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. So – no shortcuts. It’s in a way, it’s quite comforting that actually hard work pays off. So, if you’re not there, if you’re not visible on the platform, if you’re not creating great content, then you’re not going to get the interest. But if you are and you work it and you use the network as a proper networking tool, then you create success.

Graham Hawkins:

Just like the old days when you and I would get our list and we would cold call and we knew that we had to prospect and we would churn through the calls, that was hard work. But we did the hard work knowing that it would produce the result. It’s the same on social. And digital. So don’t think you can just put up a few posts and then sit back and wait for the leads to roll in.

Richard Lane:

Yes, absolutely. And I think there is a lot of that around, right? A lot of people think that I just put a post up and off we go, but I know myself, that I think LinkedIn gives you this privilege of being able to build a network and communicate with people in a way that you haven’t been able to prior, but you still have to work it. You still have to be of interest. You still need to understand what’s important to them: saw this and thought of you. You need to be able to use all of these things to show that you are in touch and in tune with what they’re trying to achieve. And that you could be a provider that helps them achieve their goals.

Graham Hawkins:

A hundred percent. With all of my clients, I just want them when they do move into a buying window of some sort, and that happens in the dark as we talked about yesterday, how do you light up your dark funnel, as they say. When a buyer realize-

Richard Lane:

Sounds like a song, that.

Graham Hawkins:

It does. When a buyer moves into a “buying window”, they become aware that there’s a problem they need to solve, or there’s a better way of doing something. I want them immediately to think of my business. We have no control over that as salespeople. When the buyer realizes, “Oh, we’ve got a problem we need to fix here. Who do we know? Oh, that’s right. The guys at durhamlane”.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. I always give credit for where the quote comes from and I wish this one was mine, but it’s not, it belongs to someone I know in Canada called Craig Elias. And he talks about the window of dissatisfaction. And I love Craig’s term because it’s so visual, isn’t it? I’m a business leader or a functional leader, a head or whatever it might be. I know I’ve got a problem. I haven’t started solutioning for it yet, but I’m looking for answers. Our job, on behalf of our customers that we represent, is for us to pop up at that moment and go, “Hey, saw this or thought of this or notice this”.

Graham Hawkins:

Have you considered this?

Richard Lane:

What would happen if. And I’ll just love that phrase and for me, it’s such a visual picture of the window of dissatisfaction. I’ve not found a solution yet. I’m not in buying mode, but I’m just pre-buying mode. And I’m in exploration and that’s when you can become a real partner, I think.

Graham Hawkins:

Yeah. And look, there was some study done, Professor Cole somewhere, I think over here in the UK, did some study about how people firstly go about solving problems. And apparently, we interrogate our memories first before we start a Google search. We immediately think, “Oh, I’ve got a window of dissatisfaction. I’ve got a problem, who do I know? Oh, that’s right, the guys from durhamlane. They talk about outsource sales and MQL”. So, we as humans, we do that first, before we start doing our research on Google. So, if you are present in their mind, top of mind, as they say, you’re a chance to influence the sale right from the start.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. And interesting, I was just, as you say now, I’m thinking, I always look at my kids and think, “How do they do it”? And I wonder, do they interrogate their minds before they go to their phone? I’m not entirely sure. Particularly my little one, he’s 11. And I sometimes think that he goes there for answers first.

Graham Hawkins:

Yeah. He probably is.

Richard Lane:

So maybe that’s another change that’s coming and makes me feel even older, but I think that’s the digital first type approach, isn’t it?

Graham Hawkins:

It really is. Yeah. And the other thing in amongst all of that digital first approach that we have to be aware of, I think, is that more and more of the B2B buyers that we are selling to these days are millennials themselves.

Richard Lane:

Indeed, indeed.

Graham Hawkins:

And that’s just going to increase. If your sales team hasn’t got a playbook that caters for millennial buyers, you potentially missing out.

Richard Lane:

Indeed. And maybe just file topic before we close out. If your organizer just doesn’t have a playbook, maybe full stop. No, because I think you’ve found haven’t you discovered recently that many, many companies don’t even know what you’re talking about.

Graham Hawkins:

No, it’s a somewhat interesting term playbook and it means different things to different people. But I quite often say to sales leaders, do you mind just showing me a quick look at your sales playbook and I get a blank look. More often than not, what do you mean by playbook? I said, “Well have you got a doc-

Richard Lane:

How you do what you do?

Graham Hawkins:

Have you got a documented process or a playbook that you follow? How do you onboard sales people when they arrive? How do you show them this is how we do things around here? And again, depending on your definition of playbook, it can mean all of the tactics, the methodologies, all of the frameworks, all of the contents, how you measure, what does good look like? That’s a playbook. But quite often I find most people don’t have one. So, helping them build a playbook to start with is a good place to start.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. It is fascinating that you’ve got global organizations often at all sorts of organizations, but including global ones that haven’t got the manual of how to work with their customers, which is-

Graham Hawkins:

It’s astonishing.

Richard Lane:

Crazy.

Graham Hawkins:

This is the part of the business that drives growth. This is the part of the business that creates the lifeblood for your business, the revenue. These are the people who are engaging with your customers and you don’t have a defined playbook. Hello.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. Sort of crazy, isn’t it? So maybe if you listen to this and you haven’t got one, then we can probably help you. So, reach out is to Graham or myself and we’d be happy to share some insight into that, but everyone needs a manual. I think it was Dwight Eisenhower that said: “In preparing for battle, I found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.” So that links back into that theory.

Graham Hawkins:

To go with that one. I think Napoleon said, did he not, that “war is 90% information.”

Richard Lane:

Yes.

Graham Hawkins:

So, collecting the data and the information and the knowledge, they go hand in glove, those two.

Richard Lane:

Very good. Well, Graham, it’s been lovely having you with us. Really appreciate you making the trip up to the North East, bringing the sunshine with you.

Graham Hawkins:

Absolutely.

Richard Lane:

And really great to be able to catch this impromptu podcast. I hope to everyone listening that you’ve enjoyed it and I’m sure we can do another one sometime soon Graham from maybe the other side of the world, but we can sort that out through technology. So great to have you with me. Thanks very much.

Graham Hawkins:

Thanks Richard. Cheers.

Richard Lane:

Okay. Simon, what do you think?

Simon Hazeldine:

Well, there’s an absolute ton of fantastic things I could reference Richard from your conversation with Graham, but one that particularly stands out, because I’m a big fan of using storytelling as part of the sales approach. We know that’s very, very powerful. It was that phrase where the sense makers and storytellers, that I think particularly resonated for me.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. I love that, Simon. I, like you, talk about with the storytellers and I think what I now say, following my conversation with Graham, is that we are the sense makers and the storytellers and that really links into our first sales mantra, which is business fit, business value, developing long-term relationships. So, our job as sales professionals is to help our customers and those we want to be our customers, to resolve some of the challenges they have and to think differently about how they can work with their customers or confine new customers or how they sell their products and services and to think differently. Our job is to help them make sense of their world and then to tell relevant stories that help them see how they could change their worlds. I love that. And I’m now using that, going on forward. So, we’re not just the storytellers, but we’re the sense makers first. And then we’re the storytellers that help people to take action.

Simon Hazeldine:

So big thanks to Graham for that one then Richard.

Richard Lane:

Thanks Graham.

Simon Hazeldine:

And fit and value as well, mantra number one. Business fit and value. That as well, I think linking into the sense making and storytelling, I think was another standout one.

Richard Lane:

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think mantra one for me is it’s not number one because of this, but for me it is the most important. If you are going into any prospecting conversation, having worked out that you believe there could be a fit and believing that you’ve estimated you can add value, if someone doesn’t want to speak to you, it’s not your problem. It’s a total mindset change. And that, for me early days in my sales career, was an absolute light bulb moment. And we train all of our team and all of our customers in that way of thinking, it changed your mindset to proactive outreach.

Simon Hazeldine:

Yeah. And I think the other one that really stands out and obviously Graham’s a real expert in this and very passionate, is about the use of social selling. The two things was, content’s not just King, it’s now the whole Royal family was his phrase, which I thought was absolutely wonderful, but also that comment that the hard work is in engaging and nurturing the relationship. So, there is sometimes this idea that social selling is easier than perhaps the classic way of hitting the phones or something, but actually it takes consistent focus and discipline and effort in order to make it actually come alive and be a useful part of your approach with customers.

Richard Lane:

Absolutely. We were really lucky because Graham ran a session for all of our Sales Execs when he was with us. And he’s really nailed how to nurture and uncover and pique interest through LinkedIn with its 8 million plus users. I guess it’s the B2B database that is continually updated by the users and by its data. And he came up with, I know we talk about this in the podcast, but we talked about lighting up the dark funnel, which I think could be the name of a song. And then I also referred back to friend of mine, Craig Elias in Canada who talks about the window of dissatisfaction and really that comes back down to sleuthing for people with challenges that you could solve through social, is not really any different from what else we do. It’s just another channel, isn’t it?

Simon Hazeldine:

Yeah. But it’s a very powerful one. I’m a big fan of sales navigator. It’s such a powerful resource for sales people to be making full use of and social selling. It was the reference I think, that Graham made to Professor John Cole on the memory. When we got a problem, we interrogate our memory first. So, who do I know who might be able to help me because it’s about timing sometimes. The customer may not have a need now, but when they do, you want… A good friend of mine, Anthony Steers talks about it like a pizza menu. I know you might not want a pizza now, but if you do at any stage in the future, here’s the menu, so you know how to get a hold of me. And I think that, and also keeping in touch, keeping raising the customers’ awareness through social, et cetera, that you’re there. Just so when the stars align, you’re first point of contact for them. I think that was a really great commentary.

Richard Lane:

Yeah, absolutely. We always talk about you need to be found for when that right moment comes. So, make sure you’re at the top of the inbox or make sure you’re in the inbox for when someone searches and now that’s not enough anymore. It’s be found anywhere and everywhere. And particularly in the places where people spend their time.

Simon Hazeldine:

And I think the final one, as well, was I’m a big fan of sales playbooks. We work with clients on producing sales playbooks for them. And there was a very powerful comment from Graham about changing it to match the buyer’s journey. Lots of organizations have a sales process, but we got to remember the sales process doesn’t float in midair on its own, it’s integrated and should be aligned to the buying journey or the buying process the customer goes through. I think that really is very important thing that should be at the core of an effective sales block, is how do your customers buy?

Richard Lane:

Yeah. A hundred percent. And it’s all a part for me really, of that professionalism of our industry. How can you be professional without the manual or the guide that helps people to learn their craft and to be successful?

Simon Hazeldine:

Yes. Wonderful. That was a great, absolutely fantastic interview. Thank you on behalf of The Insiders listeners. Thank you very much for getting Graham in the studio Richard, and recording that. It was great to hear an in-person episode. Hopefully we’ll get the chance to do some more in the future.

Richard Lane:

Yeah. Thank you. It was a lot of fun. It was an impromptu chat. Big thanks to Graham for being part of it. And we’ll do more, no doubt, early soon.

Simon Hazeldine:

Fantastic. Well that brings us to a close of this special episode of The Insider’s podcast. Thank you very much for joining me, Richard. And of course, thank you to Graham as well for taking the time to share his wisdom.

Speaker 1:

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