Signals over Spreadsheets – How Workwize Built Smarter Sales Pipelines

Richard Lane 0:17
Welcome to The Insiders by durhamlane, an industry podcast that connects the world’s marketing and sales, one guest at a time. I’m your host, Richard Lane. I’m Co-founder and Chief Commercial Officer of durhamlane, and today I’m really thrilled to be joined by Andre Stoorvogel, Head of Marketing at Workwise.
Andre, firstly, it’s great to have you on the show. Thanks for being with us. And before we get into the topic today, which is all around, I think we’ve titled it Signals over Spreadsheets, Building Smarter Sales Pipelines at Work Wise, which.
Quite a big mouthful, but a really interesting topic. Before we get into that, then you could maybe just tell tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and a bit about work wise to get us started.

André Stoorvogel 1:02
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the invitation. Glad to be here. So yeah, my name is Andre. I have about 20 years of experience working as a kind of a head of marketing at different startups. And my sweet spot has always been in the scale up phase where the product market fit has been established.
And then helping to go from 00 to one. And yeah, I kind of enjoyed this phase also because it’s just a stage of the company where before it gets too political and too much bureaucracy.

Richard Lane 1:35
Right.
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 1:37
And every time I do it again, yeah, I learn new things and I apply things quicker. In the latest company I now work for, there’s been, of course, the whole AI evolution that’s changing the marketing rules once.

Richard Lane 1:58
Yeah. Have you just on that Andre and it’s interesting what you say about sort of really enjoying that that startup phase is there, is there a, does it get to a certain number of people and you think it’s time for something different or when does the politics kick in? Is there, is there a moment for that that you can sort of think back to?

André Stoorvogel 2:17
Yeah. Also in my experience, mostly you know the startup got acquired and I kind of missed how it would continue otherwise. But then when you get acquired that that’s really, you know, you get to a very different culture very fast because you adopt the the culture of the the modern company and things.

Richard Lane 2:21
Right.
Yes.

André Stoorvogel 2:35
Really, you know, change from there, but I’d say I think like 150 people I’d say to, you know, if I, if I would guess that’s kind of the the number where things really start changing.

Richard Lane 2:50
But but really the trigger, and we’ll talk about trigger events later. But the trigger is the company gets acquired and you start thinking it’s time, time for something different. That’s what you’re saying.

André Stoorvogel 2:59
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah.

Richard Lane 3:01
Yeah. So, so focusing in on on work wise then Andre, you’ve, you know you’ve really shifted that organisation from going from sort of 5% inbound to to 85% inbound. So I guess firstly it’d be good to know.
What? What helped you achieve that seismic shift? And then I suppose second question is everyone’s talking about inbound being dead. So you know, have you has that shift been the right thing or you know, where is it? What’s happened the last 12 months, for example?

André Stoorvogel 3:33
Yeah, yeah. So I I think there are two main components and and maybe I can first tell you a little bit more about Workwise. So Workwise sells a solution to IT managers who have distributed teams all around the world and need to get laptops to these teams.
But more importantly, also need to retrieve them when employees leave or when the laptop is end of life. And so we kind of have built out a warehousing network around the world, a supplier network.
Supplier network and also a bit of software on top to kind of all put it together. And I think the unique kind of thing about this is that it’s not a pure software play and you see in this age of AI a lot of solutions getting replaced. But I think that’s the beauty of work wise is that the physical.

Richard Lane 4:24
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 4:27
Warehouses is something that’s hard to replicate with AI. And so when I joined the company, we were really focused on HR, HR managers and the selling point was on giving your remote employees a nice onboarding experience, but.
I think that was a more of a nice to have and when I joined we we actually quickly then pivoted to the IT manager because they were also on these calls and they said, yeah, we we really need those laptops back, you know, and people depart. And so I think that the first component of scaling in mount was.

Richard Lane 4:48
OK.

André Stoorvogel 5:03
You know getting the the product market fit right and really understanding the pain points and really doing that you know that that research of your ICP. So is it what you know. So does the what you sell does resonate with with your market so.
I think step one was really rewriting the whole website towards that IT manager. The second part was really about.

Richard Lane 5:27
Right.

André Stoorvogel 5:32
If you if you look at a, you know the market, they say that in any given moment 5% of the market is in market. They are now shopping for a solution. And So what you see a lot of companies do when they start marketing, they start with.
Brand awareness campaigns or sponsorship, a lot of top funnel initiatives targeting people that are not in market. And what I what I wanted to do is I wanted to do a, you know, a bottoms bottom up approach where you identify the ones that are shopping around and you convert them and as.

Richard Lane 5:55
Yes.

André Stoorvogel 6:07
As that’s the quickest way to revenue, then you can scale your program further because you can justify, you know, because of the conversion rates. So we started out on channels like Google Ads where through keyword research you can very, you know, very quickly and easily identify what are the commercial.
Keywords, what are those money keywords that people with a buying intent would use. So that that was kind of the initial success on Google Ads. And in parallel we started with our organic strategy. So you know, writing blogs, getting those ranked, but that’s a much bit of a more long term.

Richard Lane 6:44
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 6:46
Strategy. But as we were getting, as we were closing deals through Google ads, by that time, you know the organic side had picked up and we would, you know, use also keywords like competitor alternatives because that’s also a buying buying keywords.

Richard Lane 7:02
Yes, yeah, yeah.

André Stoorvogel 7:04
And also for people that that are not aware of your brand, they might be aware of other vendors and that’s how you enter, you know, there when you get get into the picture, you know when you associate yourselves with other other companies. So yeah, it was really truthful this, you know, getting that product market fit right, understanding the the pain.
Points using that on your website and the other bit was starting with the bottom of the funnel and then slowly moving up because as you close more deals, you know you get more confidence from the management team to kind of grow the budgets and yeah, it really went from there.

Richard Lane 7:41
So, like anything in life, really, Andre, it’s never one thing. It’s a It’s a mixture. It’s a mixture of different things happening together. I think just something really interesting that you mentioned there was that you were selling to HR. IT were also on the phone, but your team were probably sort of ignoring those people and focusing.
on the HR people who had a nice to have need, whereas the IT people had a tangible money orientated or return on investment backed need. So what a simple pivot, but so impactful.

André Stoorvogel 8:14
Yeah. And I think the most successful businesses, they they become big after after such a pivot that which seems small at the time, but it was the aha moment really that’s went from there.

Richard Lane 8:19
Yeah.
Yeah.
And how do you, how did your team balance that sort of blend of inbound and outbound? So I presume you’ve got, I presume you’ve got a sales team going out into market using some of these signals and triggers and then you’ve got inbound coming, coming to you, you’ve obviously done a lot of work on.
On the ICP and and the inbound piece, but have your team still going out to on a sort of account based selling motion as well?

André Stoorvogel 8:52
Yeah. So as we as we grew with with inbound, I guess the outbound side stayed a little bit flat and and I think we were still kind of looking for the strategy for that and yeah kind of quite recently I’ve also kind of taken ownership of the of the BDR side and in.

Richard Lane 9:09
OK.

André Stoorvogel 9:11
Hindsight, that’s actually has been a great move because there’s things happening on the marketing side and there’s things happening on the BDR side, but they don’t really talk, you know, a lot to each other. But now that you know you’re part of the same team, you have the same KPIs.

Richard Lane 9:22
Right.

André Stoorvogel 9:28
Then there that information flow is is much better. So let me give you an example. You know accounts visiting our website or accounts engaging with our LinkedIn ads. You know this is information we we used to see all the time, but we’re yeah, didn’t really know what what to do now, but now we kind of.
Send these accounts through kind of an AI workflow to do an ICP check and then we send them to the BDR’s as a as a calling task and that’s that’s really you know a great great partnership there where we kind of connect where we collect.
Connect where we collect all these buyer intent signals and we send them on to to the BDRS and we’ve seen a much higher meeting booked rates than before, where before we were really dependent on on pure cold outreach and we’ve really shifted to more warm outreach now.

Richard Lane 10:19
Right, excellent. So yeah, that, I mean that’s that’s interesting. So in in terms just thinking back to that decision making process of the BDRS coming under your remit of marketing, was that something you had to fight for? Was it an easy, was it an easy win?
Was there, you know, did you have to go out and make the case for why that is a good thing or or was the organisation ready to accept that? I’m just interested to know because I suppose at Durham Lane we, you know, we provide outsource BDR services and I often say that we’re the we’re the middleware that connects marketing and sales together.

André Stoorvogel 10:55
Yeah.

Richard Lane 10:56
Now it sounds like your marketing brief has has extended into that BDR world and that’s working. But you know, did you, did you have to persuade people to to give that a go or was it let’s go for it?

André Stoorvogel 11:09
Yeah, I think the the the hardest convincing was for the the BDR themselves, because if you think about it, most BDRS have a career trajectory that goes from BDR to account executives. So if you marry the BDR and a E team together, it’s like, yeah, it’s, you know, a great.

Richard Lane 11:22
Yes.
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 11:27
Career path but I I don’t think that needs to that needs to change like if you if you report into marketing you can still excel in in you know as a sales as a sales individual and and our kind of our BDR team lead still has these coaching programs to get people ready into an AE role.
So I don’t think there’s any opportunity lost and I think they still have the same career chances, maybe even better because now you know they they, you know, they get to book more and more meetings because they have the intelligence at their fingertips.

Richard Lane 11:58
Yeah.
Yeah, let let’s spend a bit of time on the sort of signals and and and AI in in that BDR world because yeah, you’ve given a really good example there of at the top of very top of the funnel in terms of advertising and making sure you’re seeing when people are searching on your competitors, but then also.
With the with the IT directors having a really, you know, a problem that needs solving. Before we came on air, we were talking about GTM engineers and the rise of this of this role. So perhaps you could tell us a little bit about the success you’re having from a.
You know the use of AI point of view in in helping identify those those signals and and create the reason for the BDR to to make that warm call.

André Stoorvogel 12:45
Yeah. So if you think about the, you know, the traditional BDR, well, there’s quite some time reserved for researching accounts, you know, making sure you know they’re within your ICP, like looking up phone numbers.
Looking up e-mail addresses and I think that’s the that’s the bits that AI can now really replace for you. So they they can do all of that research on the background if you have those kind of agents kind of lined up.
And have some kind of workflow that’s you know if if they are ICP then the next step is search for the phone number, search for the e-mail address and also the the job title. And so yeah that’s.

Richard Lane 13:24
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 13:31
Yeah, that that saves a lot of time and it gives the the BDR more time to focus on how, yeah, how is my pitch, you know, how is my, yeah, kind of more on on the last, you know, last 20% that’s needed to to get someone, you know, get a meeting booked.
But I also see other organizations that really go too far in this in in this AI a bit. So they they completely write the emails with AI. They send emails with AI. Some you know these days you also have AI dialers.
And I think what really will work in the end is kind of this hybrid approach where you know it’s the 80% of a I research but it’s the last mile, the last 20% where the BDR takes all that information, looks at the account and then that does a multi channel orchestration like what is the best way to to kind of approach.

Richard Lane 14:07
Yes.
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 14:26
This approach, this account. And so the role of this GTM engineer, it’s it’s, yeah, it’s a relatively new role. I think it’s been coined by Clay is, yeah, to kind of find.

Richard Lane 14:37
Yes.

André Stoorvogel 14:42
These well kind of do the do the enrichment of of your your cold contacts to make sure that they’re you know within within your your ICP. But I I think more more importantly is start recognizing.
The signals online that are being given by the potential buyers and I pointed out you know website people on your website if they if they go to your pricing page or if they go to the solution page multiple times and.
There are certain signals there that you know, you know, you can actually put them in in the workflow and, you know, reach out to them and see if it’s worth having a further conversation. And I also talked about, yeah, LinkedIn intent, so people engaging with your ads.
But we’ve also been quite successful in in social selling. So our CEO, you know, posting accounts, sorry, sorry, posting posts on LinkedIn. We would then sponsor these posts so it’ll get a wider audience and we’ve seen great success of people, you know, engaging with these posts and kind of.

Richard Lane 15:44
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 15:50
Following up with them and getting quite some meetings booked, but next to intent signals you could also look at trigger events. So in our case, if there’s been a new funding round or if the IT manager has recently joined or if the company had a big layoff recently.

Richard Lane 15:54
Excellent.

André Stoorvogel 16:09
Need to retrieve a lot of laptops. These are all great trigger events to, you know, that’s the right time to get in touch with with our audience and I think.

Richard Lane 16:17
Yeah, it’s it’s it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because you know, throughout my entire sales career I’ve used trigger events. It’s just, you know, a key part of our selling at high level methodologies all around business fit and business value. So it’s just what what I’ve always done in in my corporate career and then.
We’ve done as as Durham Lane. I think the difference now is the ability to automate the identification of those trigger events and then pull them through. Do you do you serve up these? Do you serve this up as a sort of CRM tasks to your BDRS or are they quite actively involved in?
How it works behind the scenes, you know, do you do you have them? Are they just focused on my next call and why or do you do you really do they engage? I guess I’m just trying to understand how engaged they are in terms of getting the right tech to work for them.

André Stoorvogel 17:11
Yeah. So yeah, it’s a good question. So right now indeed they’re just CRM tasks and if they use a power dialer, you know when someone picks up, they get to see, you know, the bullet points for that account. So recently had a funding round. They have offices in Mexico and Canada.

Richard Lane 17:19
Yeah.
Right. Yeah, yeah.

André Stoorvogel 17:29
They had, they’ve hired to 50 people, you know, remotely and those are kind of the, yeah, the talking points then for for in the call, but um.

Richard Lane 17:38
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 17:42
Yeah. So indeed it’s it’s being made really easy for the for the BDS to do kind of a lot of calls. But I do think where we can you know benefit more from this is if they do a little bit a bit of more research because in the end it’s all automated, right. And they just need to kind of Fact Check that yeah, we don’t end up kind of.
Calling a competitor, for example, because.

Richard Lane 18:04
Yeah. And that and that and that’s where that’s where it’s so critical that you have thoughtful, we talk about thoughtful prospecting. So you know actually This is why I’m calling, but this is, you know, this is the wider context as well. And I guess you know one thing that you mentioned before which I think is really important is.
The over automation, we’ve got to be really careful not to over automate because if people are just dialing then you’re sort of going back to a dialing for dollars but with a bit more with a bit more purpose and and actually you know what we need is to I always think the bar hopefully is continually getting higher and I think a I with its capability.

André Stoorvogel 18:28
Yeah.

Richard Lane 18:42
Abilities and speed is it’s allowing us to be more informed than ever, which means you can’t afford not to be informed. It becomes the new baseline. So we’ll still need people that can build rapport, ask great questions, learn and understand and and be relevant, I think.

André Stoorvogel 18:58
Yeah, exactly. And I think in this day of age, that’s if if everybody’s on the AI bandwagon, that’s how you can differentiate yourself as an organization where you actually sound human, which is going out of fashion really, really fast now, yeah.

Richard Lane 19:11
Yes, yeah.
Out of fashion. Yeah. Yeah. And do you do you think that, I mean, I think the, you know, there’s a recognition that.
Technology is is really helping us to be more informed, you know, more rapidly. Just going back to that sort of go to market engineer type role, do you do you see, do you see that sitting in sales operations? Is it a?
Is it a role that goes across the business?
How do you, how do you see that working? I mean, how are you thinking about that in in work wise?

André Stoorvogel 19:48
Yeah, I I think it’s a it’s a role that sits, yeah, I I guess slightly closer to to marketing because yeah, because of the the signals that are out there and and it’s channels that marketing already touches. So you know social media channels.
Website channels, but also things like.
Yeah, those kind of trigger trigger events, which kind of marketing also looks at. So for us, yeah, it makes more sense to be more involved in marketing, although the day-to-day stakeholders are are the BDRS, right? So.

Richard Lane 20:31
Bye.

André Stoorvogel 20:33
And I I guess that’s something we haven’t really figured out ourselves, but I guess our advantage is that we now have marketing and BDR as as one team. So it’s kind of it would sit I guess more on on the BDR side.

Richard Lane 20:48
Yeah, that that’s probably true. I think at Durham Lane, at Durham Lane we created a Rev OPS group. So we’ve got sales, marketing, account management all all together, so and sales operations. So, so for us I think we’re.
I mean our business is more complicated because we’ve got sort of 30 plus clients all with different messaging, all with different solutions. So and we could definitely couldn’t afford to have a go to market engineer for every one of them. But actually how do we, how do we get those individuals or those, how do we get that team?

André Stoorvogel 21:12
Yeah.

Richard Lane 21:21
Creating the best practices that work in most situations and then you can tailor, you know, I guess 8020 rule you can then you can tailor the the rest to make it as best fit as possible. But I think it’ll be a really interesting role that comes through and it’s sort of a development of.
A Sales OPS Rev OPS type role isn’t it in terms of but it links so clearly into data as well. I still think data is the big thing that people don’t want to talk about because most most companies data is is pretty awful.

André Stoorvogel 21:53
Yeah, yeah.

Richard Lane 21:53
So you know how you you sort of feel you have to sort that out first and then you can do the rest.

André Stoorvogel 21:59
Yeah, exactly. And and I think on one hand there is you know a big advantage if you consolidate all that data on on what one platform. So for example, we use HubSpot for marketing automation and our CRM, but also our website runs on it. So I think it’s great our our customer success team.

Richard Lane 22:13
OK.

André Stoorvogel 22:19
Team also uses it, so that is great. But what I see on the BDR side is that I haven’t found kind of one platform that does it all very great. So cold emailing with high deliverability rates.
Cold calling with high quality phone numbers or a LinkedIn automation tool that can do it all. So what we tend to do there is use the kind of a best of breed solution and then tie them together.

Richard Lane 22:44
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 22:51
So I think there’s something to be said for for everything. So you know it’s nice if the data lives on on one platform, but if the functionality is subpar and especially for example for cold emailing if you if you don’t have a great.
E-mail a tool like it will really hurt, you know, the conversion rate.

Richard Lane 23:08
Yes, yeah, absolutely. So I get and this is sort of one of the challenges. It’d be interesting to get your thoughts. You’ve obviously been in lots of scale ups, Andre, and you know, I suppose the sort of tendency to buy lots and lots of tech is, is is prolific.
How have you have you? Well, have you? I’ll change the question. Have you have you spent lots of time persuading people not to buy tech or buy too much tech? Do you try and keep your tech stack as tight as you can or what have you found works best there in the businesses you’ve been in?

André Stoorvogel 23:44
Yeah. So what I do see is that as new people join the business, I guess an easy win for them and and a logical thing thinking is like, right, let’s, let’s reset that tech stack. You know, I’m going to bring the tools that I brought for my organization and I think that’s, yeah, something we need to be aware of.

Richard Lane 23:59
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

André Stoorvogel 24:04
Because you know, sometimes the existing tools work just just fine. But I think overall, I think it’s good to be very open minded on, you know, testing new tools every week. You know, there are new tools out there that could maybe do it bigger and so it’s very.

Richard Lane 24:16
Yeah, every, every day. Every day, yeah.

André Stoorvogel 24:19
Yeah. So it’s important to kind of plug and unplug tools that that can do it cheaper or do it faster. It’s good to have that agile mindset. So I I would not be, I think a few years ago I was like, yeah, you know, I prefer just to use HubSpot and you know, just nothing else.

Richard Lane 24:31
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 24:39
But the truth is that, you know, some components, you know, just just do it much better than than HubSpot. So yeah, that’s just the reality.

Richard Lane 24:45
Yeah.
Yeah, well, I I think there’s and it’s a, it’s a, it’s a narrow path tread in terms of what tech you use. I think the whole licensing thing is going to have to change as well because you know, I can’t imagine signing up to a two years deal with any tech company at the moment because.

André Stoorvogel 25:06
No.

Richard Lane 25:06
You know things are changing, things are changing so fast that you know that doesn’t really make business sense. Talking about change and things changing fast, we’ve got a couple of questions which I think are probably podcasts in their own right, Andre, but just maybe as we.

André Stoorvogel 25:12
No.

Richard Lane 25:24
Sort of come to the end of our our chat today in terms of looking ahead, what do you see changing most in B to B marketing and sales over the next year? I I will appreciate that’s a really tough question.

André Stoorvogel 25:38
Yeah, that’s a that’s a good one. Yeah. Well, I think, I think social selling, it’s gonna be very important. So I think people will be less responsive to ads, but if you sponsor, you know.

Richard Lane 25:53
OK.

André Stoorvogel 25:56
Good, good stories that that offer value. People will stop scrolling and and read that and might might start to follow you and that that’s what we’re seeing as as you know working.

Richard Lane 26:07
And and when you say social selling, are you meaning LinkedIn or are you? Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 26:10
Yeah, yeah, yeah. In in our case, indeed that’s that’s that’s LinkedIn. And the other bit of course is well, I guess on the marketing side is where you know historically you’ve been dependent on traffic from Google.
Now a lot of people, they ask their questions on an LLM like ChatGPT and and so we need, you know, the whole marketing industry needs to become good at how do I get quoted by ChatGPT as the answer and.

Richard Lane 26:41
Yes.

André Stoorvogel 26:41
I think I’ve seen the other day that ChatGPT is Open AI is is recruiting for some kind of like an advertising manager role, hinting that they’re probably going to introduce a paid model. So if you sort of ask for what is the best vendor for that, then you can kind of get a.

Richard Lane 26:56
All right.

André Stoorvogel 27:01
Concert listing. So the day that happens, I think, I think a large portion of our budget from traditional ad channels will move to to these.

Richard Lane 27:09
Yeah, that’s that’s that that’s really it would be, I guess it would be a shame if that happened. I expect it will happen. But actually you know the we’re we’re very lucky actually because we’ve we’ve been getting found on ChatGPT which is which is great.

André Stoorvogel 27:25
Yeah, yeah.

Richard Lane 27:25
But if that becomes sort of a paid for service, then you lose some of that integrity over it, I think. I mean, it will. I can imagine it will happen. But yeah, interesting. I haven’t heard that, but that’s an interesting development. Yeah. And then final, final question then, Andre, just to finish this up for for this episode.

André Stoorvogel 27:34
Yeah.
Yeah.

Richard Lane 27:45
Of the insiders, if you’re advising another marketing leader starting on the journey, what’s the one thing they should focus on 1st?

André Stoorvogel 27:54
Yeah, it’s I think, I think something that I I mentioned earlier in this call and it’s really start at the at the bottom of the funnel. So look out.

Richard Lane 28:02
I see ICP is that was that gonna be ICP? Was that the one?

André Stoorvogel 28:06
Well, I think also at the top of the phone, people are in your ICP, but it’s more like people that are, you know, for example, if you look at the television market, right, like you and I would both be part of the target market, but we’re not particularly looking now for a new.
TV, but there is a segment out there that’s looking now, so they looking for.

Richard Lane 28:25
Oh, so the the five, the 5%?

André Stoorvogel 28:27
Yeah, exactly. The 5%. So becoming really good at recognizing who is that 5% and where, where do they shop or where do they go to to ask for questions. So in our case, Reddit, a lot of IT managers go there. And so yeah, that is that’s what I would advise because.

Richard Lane 28:29
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 28:44
Then you have your initial successes that will lead to more revenue and then then you can advocate for, you know, bigger budgets, more, more people on your team because the roads from a sponsorship to, you know, or brand awareness campaign to a sign deal, that’s a very long road. It will take a lot of time.

Richard Lane 28:52
Yeah.

André Stoorvogel 29:01
And it’s very difficult to explain to your management team that you know marketing is generating revenue, whereas going after the 5% first, that’s that is a much easier, easier case.

Richard Lane 29:10
Yeah.
So there there’s some, I mean that’s that’s a great point. So you’ve obviously got your ICP and all that bit, but in terms of the 5%.
What might one do then to identify that 5% there there? I mean it would be different for every company, but are there some? Are there certain questions that you should be asking yourself?

André Stoorvogel 29:34
Yeah. So I I guess like like I mentioned it’s like do the the keyword research. So in in your domain look for what are commercial intent keywords. So if the in anything with the word vendor or supplier or alternatives to existing solutions, these are all indications that they’re shopping around and if you.
If you have Google ads on that, that will be, you know, day one you can start getting demos and so that that’s that’s where I I would start. But of course in yeah, in every industry that’s that’s slightly different.

Richard Lane 30:00
Yeah.
Yeah, excellent. OK. Well, I think there’s loads of value in in that in this conversation, Andrea. So thank you. Thank you so much for being with us. I think from the the thinking about the 5% to thinking about the signals and the the data that we use the.
The go to market expertise that we need to make sure we have to put our people, give our people the best chance of being successful and then that whole link between sales and marketing, I think we’ve sort of told that story in about 30 minutes. So that’s that’s excellent so.
Thank you very much for being with us. Much appreciated.

André Stoorvogel 30:42
Yeah, it was my pleasure.

Richard Lane 30:43
And thanks everyone for listening. As always, really appreciate you joining us on The Insiders. I’m Richard Lane. I’ve been your host. If you’d like to hear more from us, then please find us on your favourite podcast sites such as Spotify and all of the others.
And if you’d like to know more about Durham Lane, then you can see how we’re more than just SDR outsourcing at durhamlane.com. And until next time, see you soon. Thank you.